Need help

[Gumbolt]

Scout first build with huts enabled. Common tactic in Civ 5 to grab huts?

How much does up to 100+ gold and a tech offset a much faster capital with an improved food resource earlier? Could be 5-6 turn delay building scout. Longer if you elect to tech hunting too. (Not optimal as you should play the map not play the map cause it has huts.) Not sure what if any scouting units AI on Prince start with. The Ai start with so many units on higher levels you strugle to grab many huts anyway. AI normally build a unit first in most games.

 

[Fish Man]

Scout first build with huts enabled. Common tactic in Civ 5 to grab huts?

How much does up to 100+ gold and a tech offset a much faster capital with an improved food resource earlier? Could be 5-6 turn delay building scout. Longer if you elect to tech hunting too. (Not optimal as you should play the map not play the map cause it has huts.) Not sure what if any scouting units AI on Prince start with. The Ai start with so many units on higher levels you strugle to grab many huts anyway. AI normally build a unit first in most games.

To your question - yes actually.

Interestingly enough as a civ4 and civ5 vet (with more hours in the better game, of course), ancient ruins are just an accepted staple of play, though the bonuses they give you are more quality-of-life things. Builds are so slow you'll get pottery and mining and stuff in time for the required improvements/buildings regardless of whether you pop them. The most impactful results are culture ruin, which greatly speeds up adopting tradition (by 20 turns IIRC), scarcher upgrade to deal with barbs, and situation-specific things like popping writing to build great library or getting a battering ram upgrade as the Huns and then ending up with 3 capitals by t20. But because the bonuses are not that impactful (though they're more consistently impactful - and that's key), it's more annoying to play without at least getting one of them, and AI has significantly less scouting advantage (scouts/warriors are both 2move units), "ruins on" is the default.

Anyways this is not related at all. But just empathizing on how someone who might come from civ5 could potentially think a scout build first would be optimal.

 

[Romegypt]

I do like civ 5, but I prefer civ 4. I don't understand why a scout build is bad- I need to know the territory around me, and the faster I can do that the better, no?

 

[AcaMetis]

Scouts can't defend against barbarians, and while Warriors are definitely slower than Scouts they are fast enough in terms of revealing your surrounding territory before you need to make a decision on where to send your first (or second, technically) settler.

 

[krikav]

Just a tiny minor point...
If one has patience, and the surroundings are flat and not forested, scouts can walk around way safer than warriors can with 1 tile movements. If you encounter a foe, you can just backtrack to your safespot.

I almost never build scouts, and I never build them in the early game. Time is so precious and even finding time to build the few warriors you need is difficult. There is a rush to build more workers and settlers!

Maybe if you start a 2H city, and you have two grassland cows or something, you have enough production while growing to afford a scout?

 

[AcaMetis]

Just a tiny minor point...
If one has patience, and the surroundings are flat and not forested, scouts can walk around way safer than warriors can with 1 tile movements. If you encounter a foe, you can just backtrack to your safespot.

True, although restricting a scout to 1 tile movements means it's no faster at exploring than a Warrior.

I also never build Scouts early on. The only time I'll build a Scout is if I need a Great Medic, early on I want all the Warriors I can get both to fog bust and for MP.

 

[krikav]

Yeah, it's restricted to 1 tile movements, but it's safer. Warriors tend to die constantly (at least my warriors do.)
From time to time, I do build a scout or two once I reach writing and open borders, to explore AIs territory.

 

[Gumbolt]

Most of the best players on here play immortal/Deity level without going scout first. It's normally 35 or so turns before your first settler is built. The only argument for scout first is if you keep huts on. On Civ 5 that is only to try and grab as many huts as possible. Unless playing lower levels the most you can hope for is unit, maps, gold or techs.

Even for great medics I will often use a chariot. Or you could try and keep your original starting unit? The key thing is if your stack is attacked you don't lose the medic.

On Prince level you are safe from barbs for quite a while. Enough time to scout for 1st ideal city spot and to try and find 1-2 AI.

On higher levels 5 turns growing on unimproved resources could be difference of getting a city spot or the AI stealing it. So 5-6 turns delay on working a corn resource. That is almost 1 pop growth. 15-18 food lost. This will have a snowball effect come later game. How many turns early on can you really afford for a scout? The 2nd improved resource would also be delayed.I would rather build a warrior after the first worker.

Also on higher levels scouts are poor at defending against archers/warriors. They will quickly die in the field unless you have writing or put them to fogbust somewhere safe.

 

[lymond]

Your starting unit (scout or warrior) is plenty sufficient for the initial scouting phase around your capital. Approximately a 10 tile radius around your cap is a good guideline for initial scouting. Plus, warrior is usually your second build after the worker, so he can move out to do a bit. Building a scout is really a waste of hammers, especially if you are doing so first thing when you should be building a worker, which is almost always the first build in every game except some coastal starts.

I would point out Rome, that if you are coming to IV from V, that V is a very different game than IV. There is really nothing that translate over from V to IV other than the meta 4X idea. IV is a far more complex and satisfying game. So, again, prepare to learn and lot, and certainly throw out any ideas you may have gathered from playing V.

Furthermore, I would point out that after the initial scouting phase whose primary purpose is to spot nearby settling locations, those units will set up for spawnbusting(barbs) outside your borders. More scouting can be performed later after your initial expansion, and you can push your spawnbusters out a bit as you settle new cities.

But, as other said, your most important early builds are those workers and settlers, with some warriors in between for some growth.

 

[Fippy]

Just a tiny minor point...
If one has patience, and the surroundings are flat and not forested, scouts can walk around way safer than warriors can with 1 tile movements. If you encounter a foe, you can just backtrack to your safespot.

Not minor imo, i prefer starting with a scout on deity.
Ofc getting hunting with that..different question, nobody likes that

Having 1 scout means you can almost safely uncover everything you need.
Panthers are a danger early, but jungles are not good for scouts anyways.

They are also better at protecting really important areas from barb city spawns.
With a warrior you will usually flee from barb archers early, while scouts (as Krikav wrote) can take 1 step back, look again, and maybe that archer moves away.
Important point being, they can stay around an area and "keep the light on", barb cities can only pop in fog.

Ofc there are usually better early builds than scouts, but they are sometimes underrated.
Isolation would be a great example, all that an early warrior can do better is fighting against real barbs, but on deity iso i am much more concerned about losing city spots and being pushed out of areas. You can risk such a fight against an archer early, but it's gambling.

 

[AcaMetis]

Or you could try and keep your original starting unit?

Speaking from personal experience, I would not recommend trying that. Warriors and Scouts especially tend to end up as lion chow even more often than they usually do if you try and promote them with Combat I/Medic I instead of Woodsman I and II. In addition, a Woodsman II guy could be used to efficiently scout/worker steal/etc., which is worth more than getting an extra promotion on your Great Medic later.

 

[Romegypt]

I suppose that makes sense. Bears do tend to kill my scouts, which is unfortunate.

New game is here. I think I did well to this point, but let me know. I especially need some help at the end of the video. I did go look at the whipping mechanics, and used them quite heavily (And hopefully efficiently).

Also, some production seems to be taking longer than it should as per how many hammers I'm making per turn. Like making 6 hammers but an archer (25 hammers needed according to city screen) Takes 6 turns. Shouldn't it only be 5 with an overflow of 5 hammers?

ALSO! Here is a save! The video is taking forever. I settle one tile north.

 

[lymond]

Don't tech archery..although if you had huts on it you might have popped it for free. (anyway, I don't quite follow your question about the archer build, nor have enough information to really comment)

Posting the starting screenshot here...this is a much better start:

Spoiler Start :

Ha...you love your Cathy

I would first mention that on Turn 0 your first priority is identifying the best spot to settle. So you first analyze the area, then move your starting scout or warrior to get a better view of surroundings, then settle accordingly. Generally, one cannot go wrong settling in place (SIP), but many times a better spot or bonus tile can be used like a Plains hill.

In the case of this start though, I don't see much reason to move. You definitely want that corn, and the gold is a huge bonus.

 

[Romegypt]

I moved for the sake of having that stone in workable tiles, and I don't believe it affected me- I still settled that turn.

And yes, I really only play catherine at the moment. Cossacks are great, and she's good for early expansion. I love the creative trait.

 

[lymond]

Again, I'd also recommend installing BUG/BULL, which you can find here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/

The UI improvements are extremely useful, as well as the dotmap tool. If you install with the SP option, it installs into your Custom Assets folder. You do not need to load the mods. And you don't need to start a new game to use it, it will work for the current game.

 

[lymond]

Not sure exactly what spot you chose, but since there is no seafood its not a huge deal. I'd hate killing a flood plain tile though just for stone. Cathy's culture will nab it eventually anywyay for the bonus, and it is not a big deal as far as being a workable tile. Stone can be used for another city.

yes, Cathy is a decent leader. Creative is a very good trait, but also a really nice trait for new players as it helps offset bad settling choses or otherwise not having to worry about border expansion. No complaints about Cossacks either.

edit: Ah..I see you don't have huts/events on ..good. So yeah, don't tech archery especially on low levels like this.

 

[Romegypt]

I tech it near the end of the video after grabbing the other important stuff. Will post later, it's still going through YouTube's process. I can't use imgur because my parents blocked image sharing sites.

 

[Gumbolt]

Sorry have you posted a played save or video for that third game? I can't see one on here or on your Youtube.

 

[lymond]

Imgur? Can you see my images or are you just referring to using it for your own screenshots.

Archery is a dead in tech - a diversion unless you absolutely need it for barbs on high difficulties due to no strategic resources nearby. Ofc, it is needed for Horse Archer rush. Otherwise, it can be avoided..don't even trade for it. Tech path decisions are very important in this game.

I'm playing a few turns and will post it up soon so you can see how I started. little bit of an odd layout but definitely something you can work with.

(Install BUG/BULL if I did not mention it before )

Gumbo - He posted a new save just above

 

[lymond]

@Romegypt

Played 50 quick turns just to show you how I'd play this map. Here is my empire so far:

Spoiler turn 50 :

The way that inlet moves in N of Moscow makes things a little odd as the 2nd best spot is up there. Reason I went Sailing before Writing so as to avoid a long road for access to copper and the trade route.

Settling in Place seemed the best option although I'm inclined to move away from coast in situation like this it is a decent capital. Pigs spot is no brainer and picks up the masonry. Surprised I've not met more AIs on a Pangaea map.

Have a new settler coming out...not great options for settling now so just have to go with whats best.. Probably the oasis/spice spot. Avoiding jungle spots for now although something near that newly found copper spot to SE may be an option...quite far away though.

It may be best to just settle on 4 cities and start prepping to take down Shaka.

edit: I would also mention that Moscow and St. Pete's worked out quite well location wise. The synergy with the cities' proximity allows tile sharing that gold as well as flood plains for cottage growth later. In addition, the cities were connected by a river for immediate trade route. Trade routes should not be overlooked.