Need some help with engineering rush...

[blunderwonder]

So, ive been wanting to try this for a long time, but I always end up cuir rushing or going for cannons.

Anyway, in my latest game i tried to get engineering early and failed miserably. In my defense, i was playing toku... which means no philo, and no bulb for engineering, but i could bulb machinery though it had to wait for calender/compass and all the other random techs, i skipped col and medit, and oracled MC. Anway.... it was awful. For starters, i didnt have a stack of trebs/xbows/swords until 900AD, and i was still trying to get enough samurais to go. By that time, every other civ had a massive stack of stuff, which is annoying because trebs SUCK in the open field, and i couldnt really backfill very well because i didnt want to trade away my advantage. trading machinery, when youre the only person who has it, isnt really like trading paper or philo or what have you. Add to this, that zara who was out of control, was teching like mad and getting all the good techs, he won music, won lib by 900 Ad, built taj, and was no doubt also going to win econ. And all so i could have a stack of 15 trebs and 15-20 various crap defense units.

I figured toku would be decent, protective helps the xbows, and with samurais, I figured engineering would be nice, but it wasnt Oo.

Any tips for this type of rush because im outright clueless. It sucks vs big stacks in the open, its a pain to get to, and lastly, i had to whip my cities to nothing to make it work. finally.... its a techpath that puts me me in a weird position, even if i could vassal 2 or 3 civs. And.. if it fails ill end up against cuirs, or something worse by the time im ready to go, also its difficult to get key stuff like NE and HE and work them in, and i dont know how to time my golden ages for good techs, after engineering, i wouldnt even know what tech to go for besides grens. I read somewhere about some of the better players using it, so it cant be all bad, but like i said i dont even know where to start. How many cities do i need to make it work, do i need to be philo? win oracle? When does it need to happen by?

sorry for the long post, just trying to get an answer

 

[Mantic0re]

Prince-Monarch player here so take this with a grain of salt.

For best results, you can't ever tech Fishing or Meditation until you've bulbed Engineering.


Get writing early and start two scientists ASAP. Ideally you alternate which city is using scientists to save some turns later. You need two scientists (three is better but I'm not that good). Save them to bulb Machinery and then Engineering. Don't wait on maces, Trebs work well with anything. Early trebs is most important here.


I've had better luck with Catapults/Crossbows or Cats/Elephants while I'm waiting on my last scientist to get Engineering. Capitulate AI as soon as possible, Liberate cities, heal and position units, DOW again. Ignore Lib, Ignore the tech screen and go for broke. This strategy can snowball quickly if you are aggressive.

 

[Tall German Joe]

i did a walkthrough of a deity engineering rush here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501267

i used suleiman, who I consider the best leader for it, although I give some details on some other top engineering rush leaders in the first couple of posts. there's a lot of discussion on the tradeoffs that various tactics for getting to engineering by both myself and several people in the thread.

 

[Gwynnja]

It would have been easier probably to run one engineer after MC and bulb Machinery with him rather than research calendar/compass.

Edit: Joe, great write up. Absolute Zero also has an engineering rush youtube video with Sulieman and a Machinery rush with China.

 

[Izuul]

I figured toku would be decent, protective helps the xbows, and with samurais, I figured engineering would be nice, but it wasnt Oo.

As I'm sure you discovered, leaders with strong economic traits like Philo and Fin are still the best for this type of rush.

Any tips for this type of rush because im outright clueless. It sucks vs big stacks in the open, its a pain to get to, and lastly, i had to whip my cities to nothing to make it work.

I think i have to disagree with the first part of this. One of the strengths of Medieval-era warfare and the Engineering rush is the variety of units available. There's a solid counter for everything and i think the paper>rock>scissors here is the best of any era in the game. Medieval wars may not always be the most effective or efficient, but IMO they are the most enjoyable.

Anyway, if you have good stack composition and enough troops you often won't get attacked in the open at all, and if you do, you should have good odds against everything. Knights flanking your Trebs is kind of annoying, but one turn of healing with a super medic in the stack usually takes care of that problem.

As always though, the goal is to catch the enemy SoD in a city at the beginning of the war and crush it with Trebs before it has a chance to do anything.

The bulb path is pretty complicated and It is kind of a pain to keep up with all of techs that you need and also the ones that you need to avoid, but if you play slow and pay attention it's not that bad.

finally.... its a techpath that puts me me in a weird position, even if i could vassal 2 or 3 civs. And.. if it fails ill end up against cuirs, or something worse by the time im ready to go

An Engineering rush transitions nicely to Cannons and Grens unless you completely tank your economy in the process. Keep in mind that a lot of your tech will come from treaties when you cap AI civs, and subsequently with trades among your vassals. Always try to manipulate what your vassals are researching so that you can research a tech that they do not have, and then trade it to each of them for other techs that you do not have in return.

Also, the date that you begin your initial Engineering attack is extremely important. On Deity with a good leader like Suleiman, you should be attacking before 1AD. On Immortal or with a weaker leader it's probably going to be a few hundred years later, but you absolutely want to be attacking in the early ADs. If you have a 900AD attack date it's definitely not an Engineering "rush." The earlier that you attack the longer it will be before you start facing things like Cuirs, and by then you may have better units yourself, or you might just be so huge and powerful that it doesn't matter.

also its difficult to get key stuff like NE and HE and work them in, and i dont know how to time my golden ages for good techs, after engineering, i wouldnt even know what tech to go for besides grens.

HE is definitely worth building, and you want to do it pretty early so that you can really leverage the extra production over the course of the game. You may not even get Lit until you conquer the first AI, but you definitely want to sneak in the HE build at some point after your initial military buildup.

The NE is much less important in this kind of game. You probably won't have a chance to build it for quite some time.

Golden Ages can be triggered pretty much whenever they are available. If you get any Great Merchants you may want to save them for trade routes, but pretty much all other GP can be used for GAs, and the only thing you may want to consider timing a GA around is a quick CS + Pacifism starve in a large city or two to get a couple of GMs for your treb > cannon or mace > gren upgrades.

I read somewhere about some of the better players using it, so it cant be all bad, but like i said i dont even know where to start. How many cities do i need to make it work, do i need to be philo? win oracle? When does it need to happen by?

I don't think many people use it too often, but it can be a very good strategy in certain situations.

You do actually need a decent number of cities so that you have a solid production base to start cranking out units and overpower the AI. 4 cities would probably be the absolute minimum, but you don't want more than ~6 either (especially early) because more than that will really begin to hamper your tech pace and delay your Engineering date.

You do not have to have Philo, but Philo leaders (that don't start with Fishing) are capable of doing it the fastest. Financial is also a solid trait for it if you have a really nice start. Starting techs are also something to consider as Ag + TW is one of the things that makes Suleiman so desirable for this.

The Oracle can work (Joe used it in that game he linked), but it can also be risky (particularly on Deity), and other methods can yield similar results.

 

[blunderwonder]

Thanks everyone, i had read joes post and it cleared some things up. I think i just got the date completely wrong, if i had known it had to happen by the early ADs, i would have done it quite a bit differently.


my one worry about the big stacks in the open wasnt catching them in a city, that would be nice, sometimes they have an offensive stack and they go straight for cities Oo, meaning id have to have my stack of trebs and whatnot, and also a big defensive stack for one of my cities. Ill figure something out there. Ill probably end up trying this with sulieman or another philo leader next time. I had gotten engineering by 300ad the first time i tried it with ghandi on Imm, when i was figuring out to bulb it, but i ended up scraping the game because it was just a random pangea I rolled and i sorta got bored. Next forum game without fishing ill give it a go