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Needing more Strategic Resources

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Illuminous, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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  2. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    I have used Pounders terrain stuff from time to time as I switch, if I see something I like. The bug, never noticed it, but it would not bother me any how. He has many great mods.
     
  3. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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    You don't really want that artifact around when your taking screenshots. It would be nice if you could hide the mouse pointer also.

    What are your thoughts on Universities?, how many shields should a city be producing before you would build one?.
     
  4. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Irafanview lets you hide the cursor. I just never cared, so I did not use that option. I do not recall noticing that artifact, but maybe I am just not that observant.

    Uni's, very situational for me. I tend to not make them till long after I learn the tech. It usually works out that I have better thigns to do in the places that would get one. I slip them when I can afford to not make a unit there for 8-10 turn.

    In some games you could find that you could slip one in the top city sooner, especially, if it was making a wonder and just finished.
     
  5. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    If you are playing a research game and want universities, it doesn't matter so much how many shields the city produces. It matters how many beakers it produces. If you are playing a military game, it is likely that you don't want any universities. You can get good results with science farms to get you to military tradition, or even replaceable parts, and you don't have any spare shields to invest.

    If I'm going to build it mostly by hand and I'm scientific, it isn't too tedious at 5 shields. I won't be building something else anyway, and a university is a long term investment. 20 turns now pays out over 200 turns.

    If I have lots of money, I will cash-rush the university. (In a research game, I may have lots of money because I'm selling techs to my neighbors. I can't use this money for research, because only the income from my cities can go to beakers.) I'll try to do this early on for cities with low shield production and lots of commerce, but moderate beaker producers are candidates when I'm rich.

    If I really have lots of money I may not even care about making more from extra beakers than it costs for maintenance, because I can pay the maintenance with the money I make from the AI. This is not, of course, the usual situation, but it isn't that rare either.
     
  6. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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    So basically I don't need science producing structures, and scientists unless I have science lower than 100%, correct?. I don't really understand why I would need scientists instead of taxmen. Scientists don't speed up build time, engineer's do. Their only used for increasing science for tech research, correct?. So if I have the science slider at 50%, and so many scientists to equal another 50%, then I would have a total of 100%, correct?. It would be much better building factories and plants that increase shield output, yes?.

    I run at 100% science, except when a tech has one turn left, then I pull the slider back to increase treasury money. Making sure not to pull it back to far and increase the research time.
     
  7. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    No, you need science structures and scientists whenever you want to research quickly. It doesn't matter where the slider is set. Libraries, universities, and research labs increase the beakers you get for a given amount of raw commerce, regardless of how your slider is set. Scientists give you extra beakers that aren't corrupted. Whether this is better than buildings or units depends on the situation and your playing style, though typically you have scientists in corrupt towns, where you only have one shield anyway. Running scientists won't slow down the rate at which you build units (usually artillery or workers). Using scientists instead of engineers will slow down the rate at which you build structures, but those buildings won't do you much good anyway.

    In a corrupt town, libraries will get you nothing (unless you are playing 100K, where it gets you culture) - 1 uncorrupted beaker, + 50% rounded down, gives you 1 beaker. This is where you want scientists. 1 uncorrupted beaker + 4 scientists gives you 13 beakers. In a core town you want libraries and universities, as working a tile and doubling the beaker output is better than the 3 beakers for a scientist.

    You use scientists instead of taxmen because you get 3 beakers from a scientist but only 2 gold from a taxman (and this gold is not put into the general coffers to provide whatever your slider is set to, but it only goes into having cash).

    Scientists do nothing for building anything. They only provide beakers for research, but they do this over and above what you can get from the slider. If you have your slider set for 100% science, all uncorrupted commerce gets turned into beakers (multiplied by the appropriate factor for libraries, etc.). If you add some scientists, you can get even more beakers - you could turn all of your commerce into beakers, and get that much again from scientists under the right circumstances. Setting the slider to 100% does not, by itself, give you the fastest research.

    Generally, put scientists in corrupt towns. Build structures for beaker, cash, or shield multiplication in core towns as appropriate, and, as much as possible, work tiles rather than having specialists there.
     
  8. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    "Illuminous"
    "So basically I don't need science producing structures, and scientists unless I have science lower than 100%, correct?"

    Not correct. It is more complex than that. You would like to have libs and uni's in towns that are making enough beakers to make it a good idea. You would like to have them as soon as you can get them.

    That has to be tempered with reality. That is to say, you cannot always afford to just start on a lib in all towns at once and as soon as you learn Lit. You want to take into account the rest of the needs.

    That for me tends to mean, I will put up a lib in the best beaker towns as soon as I can do it, without hurting the rest of my interest. That could be right away, if I am not at war and do not expect to have any problems should one break out.

    Then I just want to see if I can get more than a few beakers from the lib. So if I am running 50-100% research and getting say 10 beakers, it is a good place for a lib and I will start one as soon as the current build is done. Maybe even switch to one.

    If I am making 2 beakers here and do not see it getting much better, not going to make one here, unless there is some other reason I need one, like culture. For me that is not likely.

    If I am running less than 50% and will be for some time, I have little reason to make a lib. A uni is similar, but you have to consider base beakers, not net. This is due to the 50% is only on base.

    So the place is making 10 beakers at my normal research rate. Well that means I have about 7 base as 50% of that rounded down is 3. I get 3 from the lib, I must have to be able to make a uni.

    Do I want to spend 160 shields or what ever a uni cost and pay the maint to gain 3 beakers? Possibly not, I would have to look at that hard. Uni's come at a time that I am almost certainly going to have wars. Maybe not right now, but I probably just had one and one is coming. I suspect I will opt for troops.

    Plus I need a much stronger city to get an expensive structure up in any reasonable time frame. I am rarely going to build someting that take more than 15 turns.
     
  9. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    It is not common to run at 100%, except at the very start or late in the game. Most will run at least something on the lux slider. Once you move above Regent you will surely have to running more as you have fewer contented citizens.

    A more reasonable rate would be 70-80% and slide up or down fromm time to time to either get it done sooner or save.

    Scientist give 3 net beakers, taxman give 2 net gold. 3 is more than 2. It is true that could do a lot of switching to gain the max benefit, but that is more work than even I do most of the time (outside of an SG).

    The scientis will let you drop the slider down farther or sooner near the break through and give you back gold in that manner. Taxmen I do not run, unless I am not researching or I am trying to get through one turn with no loss and also not drop research down.

    Factories are another whole issue and I have already told my take on them. They are so late in the game as to not be important to me. I am in mop up mode at that stage, even if it looks like I am in trouble. I have reached critical mass.

    I tend to make only a few factories, even on a huge Sid conquest game. I just do not need more prodution at that phase. I am gaining more and more leaders making more and better armies. That means more and higher kill ratios. I just need to make enough units to fill my armies as I get them.

    Maybe 4 cities with factory. Maybe 2-4 other cities making troops at a slower rate. I usually no longer need more artillery as I have rails and will capture bombardment units as well.

    Should I need a unit someplace else, I can rush it. If you want to make more factories, fine. I would advise picking only places that can really use them. Not those 10 net shields cities.

    What is the value of making a factory and cutting my tank from 10 turns to 7 and taking 24 turns to build it? I have to pay for it and clean up after it for a tank I do not really even need.

    Remember I do not care about time or speed. I care about not letting them even feel my boot pressure reduced slightly off their neck.
     
  10. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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    So Copernicus' Observatory actually doubles my science research to 200%?. What about Newton's University, that doubles science output also, are they cumulative, making it 300%?. 300% equals how many extra beaker's towards research?.

    As for using scientists and taxmen in corrupted cities. I need to balance the two in order to gain a profit or else I'd be in the red with a 100% research.

    I could have had more SGL's spawn had I more scientists, correct?. I also could have had tech's finish sooner putting me futher into the tech race, yes?.
     
  11. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    The science wonders are cumulative, but no multiplier multiplies the output of other multipliers. Example: if you build a city with lib, uni, Cope's and Newton's, and it produces a base 100 beakers per turn:
    • a library adds 50 beakers per turn,
    • a university adds 50 per turn,
    • Cope's adds 100, and
    • Newton's adds another 100.

    Total beakers per turn = 400.
    Total additional beakers from multipliers = 300.
    Total upkeep = 3.
    Total shields invested = boatloads.

    Note that each multiplier adds only to the base amount. IOW, in the 100 bpt city, if you add a library, you add 50 bpt. If you then add a uni, it adds another 50 (50% of 100), NOT another 75 (50% of 150, which includes the beakers from the library). Also be aware that scientist output is unaffected by multipliers, so a scientist out in the farmlands puts out 3 bpt, regardless of what other improvements might be in the city.

    More scientists will not directly affect the chances of getting SGLs. The only way that that they might affect that is if they help you be first to more techs.
     
  12. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    The pedia gives the wonders traits, be it 50%, 100% or whatever. I do not pay much attention to that. I mostly play in games where I will not have them. In games where I will, all I need to know is if it is good and to put them in my best science city, if I can.

    A percentage is just that. It depends on what the base is in that town at that time. 300% of 10 is one thing, 300% of 60 is another.

    "As for using scientists and taxmen in corrupted cities. I need to balance the two in order to gain a profit or else I'd be in the red with a 100% research."

    I just drop my research, if I cannot afford the level. I do not switch scientist to taxman and trade 3 beakers for 2 gold. IOW youI just tossed away 1 gold for each one switched as a beaker is the same as gold.

    If you had switched enough, you could possibly drop to 90 and get the break through in the same number of turns and no deficit by putting them back to scientist. I maybe will switch some at the end of the tech, I do not recall even doing that in some time. Just no need for the extra work.

    "I could have had more SGL's spawn had I more scientists, correct?. I also could have had tech's finish sooner putting me futher into the tech race, yes?. "

    You have more chances for an SGL, IF you were beaten to some techs. If say it is late Middle Ages and you are first to all non optional techs, then you cannot increase your chances.

    IOW you could be first to every tech and never get an SGL. If you were first you have no way to gain more chances. It is like a lottery. You have x number of techs and if you were not first to some, then researching better could have given you more tickets at the drawing.

    If you already had all the tickets, no way to gainmore chances.

    You would cetainly be down the tech tree farther with more scientist, if they are in towns that would not have lib/uni's.
     
  13. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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    Thanks guys, I'll have to read, and re-read this over. :)
     
  14. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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    A couple pics... after the factory was built in Ergili, I rushed the Hoover with an SGL. I haven't been playing to much, so I'm not that far ahead. Been messing with graphics mods. :D

    I now have all my farms using scientists instead of taxmen, and cities with high beakers have libraries and universities. The science slider's at 90%, with cash gain.
     

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  15. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Where are your rails? If you railed just one tile in that town, it would not be starving.
     
  16. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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    I've yet to get coal, I have to attack Japan for it. I'm at war with Arabia and the Zulu's, at the moment. I'm still filling the American terrain with cities, it's going to take forever!. :sad:
     
  17. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Tell me about it. I cannot remember where I got coal from or when. I know I did not have it when I learned Steam and I hate that. Looking back to the 1788AD I see I had rails up. I am pretty sure no coal on the Zulu or German lands. Must have come from the Greek continent, which in 1000AD was about half controlled. Large maps are a lot of work as you need about 300 towns to cover 2/3.
     
  18. Illuminous

    Illuminous Chieftain

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    You most likely got the coal from Arabia, looking at one of your screenshots. Japan has three sources of coal and only one roaded, so I can't trade them for it. By the way, the Germans aren't one of the civs in this map.

    I went back some saves to fix a few things, here's the latest save if you wanna check it out. Arabia's beating the hell out of the Greeks.
     

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  19. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    When I said Germany I was thinking that was what you were playing, but it was Persia. Arabia sounds right, if they were on the same land as Greece.
     
  20. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    First city I pulled up was KC. It is size 7. On wealth, but 3 tiles are being worked for shields? One hill, one mined grass and one forest. Workers are parked? Why not gang those that are working at least? Why not move a gang to KC and chop the trees? Irrigate the exposed land and get more food, so you can put more pop as scientist?

    You can move two citizens to scientist as it is now.

    Yes coal is on Arabia's land and you are at war with them, so why no move to get the coal? Why 2 empty armies? Why 5 armies and 3 transports? Why are transports parked and why parked far from the place they are needed, namely where the armies are?

    Why 1 army has only 2 cavs? Why does no army have 4 units, now that you have transports? What is the plan for invasion? Why are you making settlers from your mostly non corrupt citis and towns?

    The thing to do at this stage is to not make settlers or workers from the core or near core. Let those corrupt places start them and take 30 turns or rush some, if needed as they get some shields into them. You do not want to lower the pop in towns that should have multipliers in them and lower your output of gold/beakers or troops.

    I see Sidon is starving? If you could get coal, you could fix that. In the mean time, pop a lib there to get the border expanded to use another coastal tile. Less attractive is a harbor. The lib is better as you get a couple beakers for your efforts and offset the maint. Either is better than starving.

    You have 5 jokers some place, I would check on them and see, if they are really needed. You have 8 taxmen, why have any? If just so you are +9gpt, rather than -7gpt? You have 4k, as was said in Jusrassic Park, "don't get cheap on now Dopson".

    I am pretty sure you should not have so many towns on the homeland at this stage (should be cities). I also am not too crazy about having the Pyramids, hope you used a leader for it. It is not worth crap on that island IMO. I doubt I would have spent a leader on it. Colossus is better in this case.

    Just a quick look.

    1) organize an invasion of Arabia
    2) fill all armies to 4x cavs.
    3) get a look at towns not growing or less than size 7.
    4) look at towns on the large continent to see, where you can get more food and hence more specialist.
    5) get all those trees chopped, they will slow down your rail efforts and they get no boost from rails.
    6) gather workers in time for rail task.
    7) get a lot more troops
    8) get more workers so you can get rails up to allow a lock down defense
    9) don't plant trees in tundra, at least till you have railed that tile.
    10 tundra towns get no structures and only specialist and in fact should only have 1 pop.
     

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