Negotiations with MIA

[Robi D]

Interesting, there seems to be a lot of toing and froing, but they just dont seem to going in a direction, its a bit all over the place, almost like they are stalling or just arn't sure which direction they want to go. Either way its not helping us. I would apply a little pressure at the next negotiations, by saying we will go elsewhere if we cant reach an agreement. The other worring thing is when i loaded up the save to have a look, the science advisor was saying that we are backward, is that a refection of the total techs discovered or the level of techs discovered.

 

[killercane]

Total techs discovered.

Im leaning towards not bothering with them. If we find the others soon we can play middleman with techs anyway. Mostly I was just fishing for info, but I dont see a reason not to do a Bronze +Wheel for pottery deal if they're serious about that. I think they are 4 turns from the Wheel, but that could change I reckon. They'll find the Celts soon if they havent already (well, if they have a curragh out, I came away from the convo thinking they were a bit confused at the very least).

When and if they become more of a power we might think about allying with them.

 

[magnusmarcus]

Why would they be researching the wheel? Perhaps they dont have a source of iron readily available or perhaps they need a unit that can run down celtic swordmen.

 

[Robi D]

They might not have a carragh, but just sent a warrior north, which would also make sense. Reading through the talks so far, mia seem to be lacking direction, which makes me think they would not be useful for a permenant tech partnership. If we can organise some trade, fine but thats all. So i think our best bet now is to find the others teams asap and see if something can be done with them, but in the mean time we should continue to push with expansion and research.

 

[DaveShack]

Emp. Napoleon considers himself to be a spymaster. This will apply both on the giving of misinformation to make us jump to the wrong conclusions about their intentions and direction, and on thinking he can get us to reveal everything.

They know we are expecting to get the free tech from philosophy and that republic is a priority for us. They also know we must have the wheel. We've revealed that we are taking a small strategic risk that nobody can reach us with units before we get the military techs.

From Greece's strategy position, they have to eventually build an offensive unit that can't be countered by gallic swords, which means knights, so they want the wheel to locate horses. Their research pattern (IW, wheel, WC) means that they don't understand what it means to have Rik build a balanced map (they assume that there will be a search for resources), and it reveals that they probably plan to war with someone earlier rather than later.

I would like to sell pottery for whatever we can get. Take BW and trust them to follow with either IW or wheel.

 

[zyxy]

Latest data:
- in the new turn (turn 33, 2480BC), Greece has BW, WC and CB. They do not have Masonry or Wheel. Probably they have IW, but we cannot see that.
- on turn 32 (2520BC) and 31 (2560BC) they had the same techs.
- on turn 30 (2600BC) they had only BW, but not Masonry, Wheel, WC or CB. So they must have traded, they cannot get two techs in one turn otherwise (unfortunately I missed that they received CB that turn, otherwise we would have known this sooner). Perhaps they traded both these techs for alphabet, or perhaps they researched one and got the other in trade.

 

[killercane]

Received this in the gmail mailbox. It seems Feaurius is much more up to speed and on his toes.

To Team Doughnuts

Thank you for meeting with us, however we felt that your idea of a good deal was not only somewhat one-sided, but totally situated in the realms of fiction. Your diplomatic team totally over estimated the values of your technologies and dramatically under estimated ours ...

I attach below an easy to read table of Relative Values for Technologies ... please read thoroughly to understand our point of view.

Spoiler Tech Values 101 :

Ancient Ages
Pottery - 2, Ceremonial Burial - 2, Bronze Working - 3, WarriorCode - 3,
Masonry - 4, Mysticism - 4, The Wheel - 4, Alphabet - 5, Horseback Riding - 5
Iron Working - 6, Philosophy - 6, Mathematics - 8 Writing - 8, Code of Laws -
10, Literature - 10*, Map Making - 12, Polytheism - 12, Currency - 16,
Construction - 20, Monarchy - 24*, Republic - 28*.

We welcome peace between our two great peoples ... But peace does not mean that trade must be one-sided ... Trade, like peace, must be mutually beneficial ...

We await your next proposal ... and in future require discussion points posted at least 24 hours prior to chat meetings ... and also to avoid frustration and time wastage you should be aware that diplomats have limited agreement powers where discussions wildly divert from the agenda, and all such options must be brought back to MIA where citizens can comment.

Your team should now be aware of what we can trade ... and where we stand.

1. We would like Pottery ... which we can smartly research very swiftly and will do nothing to increase our poulation growth in the short term ... A trade for Pottery with you will only save us 60 beakers of research time and in return you can save upto 90 beakers depending on your choice ... so take it or leave it ...

Choice for the swap one ONLY from -
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Warrior Code

2. We require Writing ...

and can offer the following
>Ceremonial Burial
>Bronze Working
>Iron Working
>Warrior Code
>Wheel

we await your offer ...

In good faith and friendship and also to dispel any awkwardness that may exist due to the last meeting, MIA would like to enclose a gift which had been prepared earlier to show that we are an honourable people ... a flag ... as we notice that you have none posted on the UN team thread ... our team's artist will be happy to add any written information to the image that you may wish ...

Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

The gift was a banner of a doughnut for our team. Im inclined to send back a counteroffer of pottery for Bronze and iron or wheel to see what they say. It seems we would take either of those from our poll, and I'll push for the wheel since it leads 3-2 over iron.

Proposal:

Bronze and (IW or wheel) for pottery. We can send right away since we have the save.
(to throw in some blackmail) we promise to not drop off warriors beside your hoplite defended cities to initiate a Golden Age for you so early in the game. Our desire is that Doughnutia and the MIAans can have a trustworthy relationship and peace between our peoples.

Is that too harsh? Is there something else we can throw in to sweeten the deal? We have 11 gold right now. We can let them know we have wines and ordain a wines-ivory trade deal for the future if that might sway them. Do I have consent to use one of those "sweeteners" to get the deal done?

As a sidenote, we received an email saying that we won the "internet lottery," so we can all quit our day jobs.

 

[zyxy]

I don't think they'll accept it, and I think Pott for WC or BW is a reasonably fair deal (their "expose" about tech values doesn't cut it of course, but who cares). I would not make threats about dropping warriors, it sends the opposite message of the "trustworthy relationship" one.

Otoh, their letter is very condescending and belittling, "explaining" to us how trade works. The deals proposed by our side were of course ridiculously onesided, but their diplomat was rather annoying. Next time they might send someone who has seen the save. Question: do we need to point these things out to them, or do we simply ignore it?

 

[killercane]

I dont think they'll accept it either but it doesnt hurt to go for the little bit extra. We can always come right back with an alright on the pottery for BW deal. They may be researching the wheel to trade to the Celts (a big if) for pottery. If so, they would be getting pottery in a few turns anyway but give up a possible wheel monopoly in hopes for more techs. It would make more sense to get it from us. Our window of opportunity is limited though in any case. A non aggression deal would allow us to settle the furs without fear of war with them right away.

Possible letter, needs corrections and suggestions:

Greetings MIA:

We thank you for your message, and we are replying in kind. Thank you very much for your gift. We have excellent news! Our sages have seen fit to offer the technology of pottery to you in exchange for Bronze Working and 10 gold.

We note that you have ivory under Theron. We will soon have wines to trade. We would be willing to do an ivory for wines trade when we get the proper connection hooked up.

We would prefer to sign a non aggression pact until turn 100 to prove our friendly intentions. We would like another meeting to discuss these matters.

Please discuss and get back to us. We are ready, willing, and able to send pottery right away so you can continue with your empire building. If we could deal directly with you Feaurius, that would be great.

Sincerely,

Killercane

 

[DaveShack]

Using the "others know this" argument will backfire, as they will say the same thing about pottery. I think we should take the 1:1 for any of the three techs they mention, and consider ourselves lucky that they didn't know pottery already.

As for how they got two techs in one turn, there is also the possibility that they popped a hut, maybe via border expansion which is pretty safe.

We're not up against novices, and we will be seen as arrogant and dishonest if we try to treat the other teams poorly. Sure, we should initially suggest trades which are favorable to us, but not so one-sided as to be ridiculous. If you would answer an AI with "no way" when presented with the same deal we are offering them, then we're asking for too much.

 

[zyxy]

ditto DS.

I would also leave out veiled threats of war etc. We want to be friends. Ivory for wines deal will take > 50 turns before hookup, even if a land conenction is possible. Should we mention that already?

And good thinking on the hut, DS! It's definitely possible. Too bad, I thought we knew something .

 

[Nobody]

I am against even mentioning war in these negoiation, They know we have nothing to fight them with and we know they have nothing. Acting angry will just make them stuborn. Or even sounding like there teaching us anoys us. I say we apologies for onesided trade propositions and say thank you for the exchange rate and banner. we then state that we are willing to trade pottery for bronze working and the wheel. And writing for Ceremonial burial and Iron working. We then state that as our unique unit is a horse unit iron working is worth less to us most nations, so this second deal is fair to both partys. I would leave out the trade route talk because that is too much infomation for one negoation round and will just confuse things. Also we could add that we both agree not to on-sell the technology with out the approval of the other. We could also ask for another Meeting to decide these two issues and begin the ground work for a Nonagression policy. (which we will discuss there, bring it back to the forums and sign via email)

 

[killercane]

Letter edited. What else do we want in it?

 

[Robi D]

If we are to offer writing and pottery for BW, IW, CB and wheel, that would be a very generous offer and one they shouldn't complain about. I wouldn't bite on some of the more inflamatory lauguage and as for pottery not being of immediate use is a bit a load of you know what. I might mention that the ambassador seemed out of the loop, but thats not important. If they are unhappy about the above swap then go for the pottery-BW swap, its at least a start and would break the ice.

edit- i kind of wrote it jumbled. The main offer should be the pot.-BW as we as they have said they would agree, but after that mention that the writ+pot for BW+IW+CB+wheel, would be possible from our side.

 

[DaveShack]

We can do the full deal, but in two stages since it would take two turns to do the deal in the game. First Pottery for BW, then come back with the writing deal as a separate thing and separate negotiations.

Reminder: I'm away from my civ computer for a couple of days.

 

[zyxy]

I would not trade writing just yet. Perhaps we'll meet someone soon, there is no hurry I think.

Independent of you I also made a draft letter. Feel free to steal/edit whatever you like, or ignore it if you think yours is better. Details on the tech trade have to be filled in depending on what the people want - it currently just represents what I would do .
Among other things, this letter attempt to defuse the situation by making a deal, and by saying we didn't like the meeting either, we think that they are partly to blame, but we want to move on.

EDIT: letter edited, replacing BW for WC, and changing specifics on the trade procedure. donut picture added.


Dear MIA,

Thank you for your letter. We have read with interest your exposition on base tech cost. As you surely know, there are more factors to a techs value than its base cost, but we understand your position.
Concerning our previous meeting, it was our impression that this meeting was to deal with possible tech trades. You will hopefully understand that our representative was not amused to discover that MIA's ambassador didn't seem to know what MIA's tech position was, or even what MIA had available for trade. We do not consider such meetings useful unless representatives are reasonably well informed about the state of their own nation. That being said, we feel that MIA - Doughnut relations are best served by leaving the failure of this meeting behind us and turn our eyes to the future.

We are pleased to see that you have made some specific offers for trades. We are interested in trading Pottery for Bronze Working. Regrettably we cannot commit to a trade involving Writing right now, but we may do so in the near future. In the interest of any future deals, may we assume that all the techs listed on your side are actually in the possession of MIA?

In ordre to speed things up, we have enclosed Pottery as trade offer with the save. On your next turn, please add Bronze Working and accept. We will then accept next time the save comes to us.

Finally we would like to thank you for your beautiful flag design. As a return gift we send you a box of doughnuts and a recipe, so that you have some use for your new pots and pans.

 

[Robi D]

I don't think i could have worded it better myself
Good work zyxy

 

[killercane]

Looks A ok by me. The save is due in 3 hours btw. Can you send it on along with the letter zyxy?

 

[killercane]

Save is due in an hour. Can anyone send it before 4:30 EST?

 

[zyxy]

I can sure play. But do we all agree on the tech we want? I have seen most people say BW, so I'll go with that unless I hear complaints.

DS suggested somewhere to leave the deal unaccepted first, so I'll go with that. Will change the letter accordingly. EDIT: done.

I'll play the save in half an hour.