Never Before Seen Leader Elimination

[Phrozen]

So since we have had many threads about which civs should get a 2nd leader and Civ VI tends towards presenting new leaders. Lets have an elimination thread. Lets limit it to existing civs as of today and only a max of two leaders per civ. The thread will be open to suggestions because frankly I am not up to snuff on the history of some civs.

Round 1:

1. Akbar (India)
2. Alfred the Great(England)
3. Alexander II(Russia)
4. Taizong (China)
5. Shapur II (Persia)
6. Abbas I (Persia)
7. Muʿāwiya I (Arabia)
8. Meiji (Japan)
9. Shah Jahan (India)
10. Ivan III the Great (Russia)
11. Kanmu (Japan)
12. Akhenaten (Egypt)
13. Thomas Jefferson (America)
14. Georges Clemenceau (France)
15. Al-Mansur (Arabia)
16. Marcus Aurelius (Rome)
17. Getúlio Vargas (Brazil)
18. Haakon VII (Norway)
19. Richard I (England)
20. Juscelino Kubitschek (Brazil)

Round 2:
1. Kangxi (China)
2. Thutmose III (Egypt)
3. Henry V (England)
4. Ur-Nammu (Sumeria)
5. Phillip II Augustus(France)
6. Ivan IV the Terrible (Russia)
7. Khosrow I(Persia)
8. Cardinal Richelieu (France)
9. Dwight D. Eisenhower(America)
10. Diocletian (Rome)
11. Lucius Brutus(Rome)
12. Bolesław I the Brave (Poland)
13. Haakon IV (Norway)
14. Sargon of Akkad (Sumeria)
15. Jan III Sobieski (Poland)
16. Rodrigo "El Cid" Diaz de Vivar (Spain)
17. Frederick II stupor Mundi (Germany)
18. Henry Parkes (Australia)
19. Eleftherios Venizelos (Greece)
20. Phillip II (Macedon)

Round 3
Alfonso X (Spain) 20
Chandragupta Maurya (India) 20
Senusret III (Egypt) 20
Shivaji (India) 20
William the Conqueror (England) 20
6. Djoser (Egypt)
7. Constantine (Rome)
8. John Adams (America)
9. Otto the Great (Germany)
10. Robert Jenkinson (England)
11. Ahuitzotl (Aztecs)
12. Piye (Nubia)
13. Arminius (Germany)
14. Emir Faisal (Arabia)
15. Ōkubo Toshimichi (Japan)
16. Nkumbi a Mpudi\Diogo I (Kongo)
17. Puabi (Sumeria)
18. Ateas (Scythia)
19. Robert Menzies (Australia)
20. Pyrrhus of Epirus (Greek)

 

[Zaarin]

Some more ideas:

Henry V (England)
Francis I (France)
Louis IX (France)
Shapur II (Persia) -- Probably a better option than Khosrau, as Khosrau would be another warrior like Cyrus, whereas Shapur II was more of a builder.
John Adams (America)
Shah Jahan (India)
Akhenaten (Egypt) (Firaxis, please please please make this happen!)
Taizong (China)

 

[Siptah]

Akbar (India)
Seti I (Egypt)
Senusret III (Egypt)
Richard I (England)
Ur-Nammu (Sumer)
Gustav Stresemann (Germany)
Ferdinand the Saint (Spain)
Diocletian (Rome)
Abu Bakr (Arabia) Won't happen, be sure of that.
Al-Mansur (Arabia)
Muʿāwiya I (Arabia)
Philipp II (Macedon)

Haakon and Abbas would be my choices as well.
Shah Jahan and Akhenaten would be welcome.

I don't know if it is a good idea to choose two leaders for every civ. It's hard to find two good rulers that didn't appear yet for the Aztec, Brazil, Australia and Scythia. There are some, but they won't compete with the rest.
For example, I've read some books about Scythia and I can't come up with a good idea for a leader. We know a lot (whatever that means) about their Golden Age and some campaigns from the 9th to the 6th century, but we don't know names or much else about their leaders. That starts in later classical times, when the Scythian's were a shadow of themselves. Some rulers are named by greek authors, but I don't think they would be a good idea to include for Scythia - it would be like choosing Valerian to lead Rome. Ateas, Scylas etc. were all very late rulers with a heavy greek influence that didn't not accomplish too much. A nice change would be a agrippaean ruler for Scythia, because they were reportedly so different from the other tribes, but we lack any names for those. It's a shame that the reports of Egypt and the Bible for once don't name the king that destroyed Canaan and other near eastern lands and even fought against Psamtik on the Egyptian borders in the 7th century.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Abu Bakr (Arabia) Won't happen, be sure of that.

Abu Bakr isn't a never-before seen leader. He led the Arabs in Civ3.

Taizong (China)

Although Taizong has not appeared in a "mainstream" Civ game, he was featured in both CivRev2 and in the Chinese version of Civ4 (as a replacement for Mao).

 

[Siptah]

Abu Bakr isn't a never-before seen leader. He led the Arabs in Civ3.

Oh right. I forgot about that. The good old times when people just didn't care about hurting each others feelings. Good that we can agree on the past being over.

 

[Phrozen]

I don't know if it is a good idea to choose two leaders for every civ. It's hard to find two good rulers that didn't appear yet for the Aztec, Brazil, Australia and Scythia. There are some, but they won't compete with the rest.

Sorry I wasn't that clear. It is a maximum of two leaders per civ not two leaders for every civ. Depending on how many suggestions the thread gets there may be multiple rounds in which it will be a maximum of two leaders per civ per round.

 

[Xandinho]

I don't know if it is a good idea to choose two leaders for every civ. It's hard to find two good rulers that didn't appear yet for the Aztec, Brazil, Australia and Scythia. There are some, but they won't compete with the rest.

Even though I'm pretty sure they will not get very far in the elimination game, here are my suggestions:

Brazil - Getúlio Vargas or Juscelino Kubitschek
Australia - Henry Parkes
Scythia - Ateas
Aztec - Acamapichtli

 

[Kimiimaro]

Bolesław I the Brave (Poland)
Meiji (Japan)
Marcus Aurelius (Rome)

 

[Zaarin]

Although Taizong has not appeared in a "mainstream" Civ game, he was featured in both CivRev2 and in the Chinese version of Civ4 (as a replacement for Mao).

Seriously? The Chinese got Taizong while the rest of us were stuck with Mao?

 

[Siptah]

Even though I'm pretty sure they will not get very far in the elimination game, here are my suggestions:

Brazil - Getúlio Vargas or Juscelino Kubitschek
Australia - Henry Parkes
Scythia - Ateas
Aztec - Acamapichtli

I think Robert Menzies would be a favorite of some people for Australia, at least some people here complained when John Curtain was revealed that Menzies would have been a better choice. So there are two options as well as it seems.

Ateas is an option for Scythia, but as I said, he ruled a few centuries after their golden age in a more different manner. In fact, some scholars even don't understand him as a Scythian ruler, but as king of the Getae, which were Thracians and not Scythians. Demosthenes describes him as a (cliché) Scythian though. This just shows that it's hard to find a good ruler in civ terms for Scythia. They would have so much potential though as a civ. We didn't even have a civ with pillaging bonuses yet, and I could imagine getting more rewards the farer away from your borders from pillaging as an awesome ability.

I'd like to propose two more ancient rulers for Japan:

Genmei, founder of the Nara period and one of the most prominent empresses of Japan
Kanmu

 

[The Kingmaker]

A few suggestions off the cuff (and some seconding for some previously mentioned leaders):

Benjamin Franklin (America) - as a non-head of state suggestion
Minamoto no Yoritomo (Japan)
Alfred the Great (England)
Akhenaten (Egypt)
Marcus Tullius Cicero (Rome) - same situation as Franklin
Cynane (Macedonia) - Alexander the Great's warrior-princess little sister
Rodrigo "El Cid" Diaz de Vivar (Spain)
Cardinal Richelieu (France)

 

[Morningcalm]

I guess we are limiting this to the civs currently in-game?

If so that removes most of my intended suggestions for queens of Korea, the Mayans, Hittites, Palmyra, etc but anyhow, here are some suggestions:

Kangxi Emperor (China, and China's longest-reigning emperor, also featured in Age of Empires III as Akbar of India was)
Shulgi (Sumeria; a runner king of Sumeria's Renaissance era)
Eleanor of Acquitaine (Queen of England but could also be a stretch second leader for France)
Thutmose III (Egypt; a brilliant military leader who saw Egypt's empire at its largest height)
Itzcoatl (Aztecs; basically founded the Aztec Empire in the form of the Triple Alliance and overthrew the Tepanecs)

 

[Zaarin]

Kangxi Emperor (China, and China's longest-reigning emperor, also featured in Age of Empires III as Akbar of India was)

Given the Chinese tended to (and I believe still do) regard the Manchu as foreigners, a Qing emperor could be controversial...

Eleanor of Acquitaine (Queen of England but could also be a stretch second leader for France)

I actually considered proposing her myself and would have considered her an interesting idea for France...did we not already have CdM. Given that she was duchess of the most important region of France and queen consort of France (and later England, yes), I think she makes far more sense for France than England--especially since England already has three solid choices and one mediocre choice for queens-regnant without resorting to consorts.

 

[Phrozen]

I actually considered proposing her myself and would have considered her an interesting idea for France...did we not already have CdM. Given that she was duchess of the most important region of France and queen consort of France (and later England, yes), I think she makes far more sense for France than England--especially since England already has three solid choices and one mediocre choice for queens-regnant without resorting to consorts.

Matilda, Elizabeth, Victoria, and Mary? I would say that Matilda would be in long before Eleanor.

 

[Zaarin]

Matilda, Elizabeth, Victoria, and Mary? I would say that Matilda would be in long before Eleanor.

Forgot about Empress Matilda, who would be a good Anglo-Saxon choice; I meant Elizabeth I, Victoria, and Mary I for solid options (history hasn't been kind to Mary I, but she was a strong ruler and actually reasonably popular before she started persecuting Protestants and accepting marriage proposals from the most Catholic king in Europe) and Anne as the mediocre choice (like Victoria, she was a figurehead; unlike Victoria, she wasn't a very inspiring one ). Honestly, I would have been inclined to include Vicky in the mediocre category, but people seem to like her, and whether she had real power or not she was certainly an icon throughout her very long reign.

 

[Roman Citizen]

My Picks
Arabia- Emir Faisal (am I the only one who wants to see the leader of the arab revolt in the game?)
America-James Madison (I could imagine a Social card focus leader since he wrote the constitution after all and maybe a unique unit based off the USS Constitution)
England- Richard the Lionheart (He would make games with Saladin more interesting)
Kongo- Nzinga Mbande ( Very different from Mvemba and would take the Kongo in an new direction)
Spain- Carlos the III (another personality figure for Spain)
Brazil-Either Getulio Vargas or Juscelino Kubitschek
China- Emperor Jingdi or Emperor Kangxi or an international release of Emperor Taizong
Japan- Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Empress Suiko, Emperor Meiji
France - Charles VI ( I want to see a mentally insane leader to lead France, he would make a good leader for this game) if not Charles Martel
Russia-Alexander II (He is what a strong and great Russia looks like)
Rome- Marcus Aurelius or a more infamous Tiberius
Germany- Either Ludwig I of Bavaria or Otto the Great

 

[Lord of War N02]

Arabia - Muawiyah I, Al-Mansur
America - Thomas Jefferson, Ronald Regan
Australia - Menzies
Brazil - Vargas, Kubitachek
China - Sun Yat Sen, Qianlong
England - Alfred the Great, James I
France - Clovis, Clemenseau
Germany - Frederick the Great, Arminius
Greece - Epimonidas, Venizelos
India - Akbar, Shivaji
Japan - Kanmu, Ashikaga Takauji
Macedon - Seleucus I Nicator
Poland - Pilsudski, Jan III Sobieski
Persia - Nader Shah, Shapur II
Rome - Scipio, Constantine I
Russia - Vladimir of Kiev, Ivan III
Spain - Alfonso X, Pelagius of Astrurias

 

[Morningcalm]

Given the Chinese tended to (and I believe still do) regard the Manchu as foreigners, a Qing emperor could be controversial...

I asked my Chinese colleagues and several Chinese friends from college what they thought, and they were all puzzled as to why his being Manchu should be a problem. They said Kangxi was considered one of the great emperors, and they *all* asked how on earth I knew him (they think all foreigners just know Qin Shi Huangdi). So at least based on this (admittedly limited) data, I would conclude there is no problem. China is and was a very multi-ethnic country (it's not just all Han Chinese).

There's also an interesting NYTimes article that also describes Kangxi as "one of China’s greatest", and goes on to say of Kangxi:

He encouraged international exchanges of knowledge embracing Western sciences and adapted them to his needs. At the same time he lay the foundations for a long-lasting, Manchu-led Qing dynasty by gaining the support of the Han Chinese majority...

As a Manchu, the Kangxi emperor trod a delicate balance between maintaining the support of all his subjects while retaining the Manchu’s elite position and distinct identity. He did it by recruiting members of the Han Chinese elite into government service and working to improve the livelihood of all of his people. His reign was not without its clashes, but he understood the importance of respecting the cultural sensitivity of the Han majority. He embraced their Confucian values by supporting scholarship and engaging in literary and calligraphic activities.

A man of action, Kangxi even led his armies onto the battlefield, the only Qing emperor to do so, remaining true to his Manchu cultural heritage as an accomplished horse rider and archer.

I actually considered proposing her myself and would have considered her an interesting idea for France...did we not already have CdM. Given that she was duchess of the most important region of France and queen consort of France (and later England, yes), I think she makes far more sense for France than England--especially since England already has three solid choices and one mediocre choice for queens-regnant without resorting to consorts.

I agree, but suggested Eleanor since I think she'd be more novel to include over Elizabeth I (partly because Civ has never represented Elizabeth I all that well; Age of Empires III at least did a good job with the snooty/posh Elizabeth I as we might imagine her).

For France, how about Good King Henry for France? Macron actually admires him (as do many French, though the king wasn't all that popular in his lifetime). If I recall, some people actually interpreted the (pixellated) Catherine de Medici portrait in the leader leaks to be Henri IV.

 

[Phrozen]

Forgot about Empress Matilda, who would be a good Anglo-Saxon choice; I meant Elizabeth I, Victoria, and Mary I for solid options (history hasn't been kind to Mary I, but she was a strong ruler and actually reasonably popular before she started persecuting Protestants and accepting marriage proposals from the most Catholic king in Europe) and Anne as the mediocre choice (like Victoria, she was a figurehead; unlike Victoria, she wasn't a very inspiring one ). Honestly, I would have been inclined to include Vicky in the mediocre category, but people seem to like her, and whether she had real power or not she was certainly an icon throughout her very long reign.

Matilda was a Anglo-Norman and married a German than a Frenchman. She most of been an incredibly competent person as her first husband, Henry V, made her regent of Italy. Her father, Henry I, made her his heir for the crown of England. She was probably the driving force in her marriage to Geoffrey of Anjou, being 12 years older and pretty fiery from accounts. Even when the future Henry II took over the war for the English crown she basically ran Normandy for him while he campaigned and did so until old age even into the early years of Henry's reign. While her reputation was mixed in England and France, the chroniclers of the HRE consider her a good queen.

The Mary I was referring to was Mary II of William and Mary fame. Though if Louis XIV gets in, his lifelong enemy William III should also.

 

[Zaarin]

I asked my Chinese colleagues and several Chinese friends from college what they thought, and they were all puzzled as to why his being Manchu should be a problem. They said Kangxi was considered one of the great emperors, and they *all* asked how on earth I knew him (they think all foreigners just know Qin Shi Huangdi). So at least based on this (admittedly limited) data, I would conclude there is no problem. China is and was a very multi-ethnic country (it's not just all Han Chinese).

There's also an interesting NYTimes article that also describes Kangxi as "one of China’s greatest", and goes on to say of Kangxi:

Interesting. I realize that China is ethnically diverse, but I was always under the impression that in China the Manchu Qing dynasty was largely regarded as a period of "barbarian rule," so to speak, sort of like the Hyksos period in Egypt (as opposed to other foreign dynasties like the Nubian XXVth dynasty in Egypt or the Yuan dynasty in China). Perhaps opinions vary or have varied over time; or possibly I'm just misinformed.

I agree, but suggested Eleanor since I think she'd be more novel to include over Elizabeth I (partly because Civ has never represented Elizabeth I all that well; Age of Empires III at least did a good job with the snooty/posh Elizabeth I as we might imagine her).

Honestly, that's why I want Elizabeth I back--because Civ has never portrayed her well and I feel like Civ6 is an opportunity to do better. As another poster suggested somewhere, I'd particularly love to see the mercurial and melancholy older Elizabeth (given that they decided to go with the tantrum-throwing young Victoria), perhaps based on the Rainbow Portrait.

The Mary I was referring to was Mary II of William and Mary fame. Though if Louis XIV gets in, his lifelong enemy William III should also.

I thought of Mary II, but given she was co-regent with her husband (and more or less a figurehead, like Anne), without qualification I assumed "Mary" meant Mary Tudor.