Never before seen wonders II - Elimination Thread

[Guatenadian]

Bayt al-Hikma - 42 (41+1) Look on the bright side, at least we'll finally have a scientific wonder win.
Uraniborg - 38 (41-3) Not that impressed by this wonder to be honest.

 

[Xandinho]

Bayt al-Hikma - 42 + 1 = 43
Uraniborg - 38 - 3 = 35

Uraniborg is very cool, but Bayt al-Hikma was more important.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Bayt al-Hikma - 43+1=44 - For me, this is more interesting. I also think it was more important, and actually, it was founded by Harun al-Rashid, the caliph from Arabian Nights
Uraniborg - 35-3=32 - Definitely a good wonder, but I'm afraid it isn't as interesting or as important as Bayt al-Hikma.

 

[Guandao]

Bayt al-Hikma - 43+1=44 - For me, this is more interesting. I also think it was more important, and actually, it was founded by Harun al-Rashid, the caliph from Arabian Nights
Uraniborg - 35-3=32 - Definitely a good wonder, but I'm afraid it isn't as interesting or as important as Bayt al-Hikma.

Uraniborg definitely looks more interesting, since we haven't got a clue how the Bayt al-Hikma looked like. Those Islamic drawings in the Wiki page are highly stylized and inaccurate.

Bayt al-Hikma - (44-3)=41 You will never reach 50! Those Islamic drawings aren't good guides to how it looked. I don't need a Medieval Great Library wonder.
Uraniborg - (32+1)=33 It may be futile, but I will defend this observatory til the very end.

 

[Siptah]

Bayt al-Hikma - 38 (41-3) I love it, but I want Uraniborg more
Uraniborg - 34 (33+1) as above

 

[Morningcalm]

Bayt al-Hikma - 38 + 1 = 39 (There are photos of related structures in the Abassid Palace in Google image search, it's not purely based on illustrations. You could easily make a reasonable structure fitting the House of Wisdom, as they did with the Nubian structures near the Jebel Barkal)
Uraniborg - 34 - 3 = 31 (One man's dream pales before the scientific Islamic Golden Age).

 

[God of Kings]

Neither of these two buildings survive to this day.

 

[Guatenadian]

Bayt al-Hikma - 40 (39+1) An important centre to scientific progress that would represent the Middle East very well.
Uraniborg - 28 (31-6) I cant wait to get started on the next round so lets finish.

 

[God of Kings]

I cant wait to get started on the next round so lets finish.

There is a moratorium on new rounds (and new elimination threads) until one week after the release of R&F.

 

[Guatenadian]

There is a moratorium on new rounds (and new elimination threads) until one week after the release of R&F.

I know, but I can't wait for the winners round.

 

[Xandinho]

Bayt al-Hikma - 40 + 1 = 41
Uraniborg - 28 - 3 = 25

I think Bayt al-Hikma is more interesting than Uraniborg

 

[Kimiimaro]

Bayt al-Hikma - 41+1=42 - The largest centre of Arab education and knowledge during the Islamic Golden Age > Tycho Brahe's Danish observatory.
Uraniborg - 25-3=22 - The largest centre of Arab education and knowledge during the Islamic Golden Age > Tycho Brahe's Danish observatory.

 

[Guandao]

Bayt al-Hikma - (42-3)=39 You House of Wisdom supporters treat the "Islamic Golden Age" as fact. I think the Medieval Arabs were no more advanced than the Medieval Europeans. They took a lot of knowledge from the empires they conquered (Persia, Byzantines), and built a little off them. Yes, they are still Muslim scholars/polymaths known today (though most of them had Persian ancestry). However, this didn't lead to a rapid increase in technology for the Arabs as to overtake Europe or East Asia. One of the Caliphs neglected the Bayt al-Hikma and it ended up destroyed so completely archeologists can't find out its location in Baghdad. I really don't need a Medieval Great Library wonder, but I guess I can't change your views regardless.
Uraniborg - (22+1)=23 I will keep supporting the noseless astronomer's observatory until the end. The Renaissance era seems more suited to get a Scientific wonder.

Islamic Golden Age sounds like far-left propaganda. I consider myself a Liberal, but I think the concept is exaggerating Medieval Islamic achievements.

 

[Morningcalm]

Bayt al-Hikma - 39 + 1 = 40 (The Islamic Golden Age is widely acknowledged as fact. While European suffered crippling strife, cultivated men discussed science and philosophy in the Middle East and made numerous advancements. At that time at least, they were more advanced (and hygienic) compared to Europe. And yes, attacking the Islamic Golden Age is not a good way to convince me here. As to borrowing knowledge from others, all Golden Ages of science do this and the Islamic Golden Age drew upon and rediscovered and appreciated many other classic works of antiquity. See, e.g. the later European Renaissance, which rediscovered Greek advancements. Or the earlier Carolingian Renaissance. One can always advance by building upon one's ancestor's achievements. No shame in that. To do otherwise is a foolish waste of time. Advancement is advancement, and reinventing the wheel doesn't really happen often.)
Uraniborg - 23 - 3 = 20 (Western individualism and advancement. This stereotype is already played out. We have Oxford. If you wanted Mayan science represented out of a desire for diversity, I fail to see why getting Civ VI its first Middle Eastern science wonder is such a problem.)

 

[Guandao]

Bayt al-Hikma - 39 + 1 = 40 (The Islamic Golden Age is widely acknowledged as fact. While European suffered crippling strife, cultivated men discussed science and philosophy in the Middle East and made numerous advancements. At that time at least, they were more advanced (and hygienic) compared to Europe. And yes, attacking the Islamic Golden Age is not a good way to convince me here. As to borrowing knowledge from others, all Golden Ages of science do this and the Islamic Golden Age drew upon and rediscovered and appreciated many other classic works of antiquity. See, e.g. the later European Renaissance, which rediscovered Greek advancements. Or the earlier Carolingian Renaissance. One can always advance by building upon one's ancestor's achievements. No shame in that. To do otherwise is a foolish waste of time. Advancement is advancement, and reinventing the wheel doesn't really happen often.)
Uraniborg - 23 - 3 = 20 (Western individualism and advancement. This stereotype is already played out. We have Oxford. If you wanted Mayan science represented out of a desire for diversity, I fail to see why getting Civ VI its first Middle Eastern science wonder is such a problem.)

Well, you got me there, though I think Zaarin would disagree about your characterization of Medieval Europe. Just curious, what were some of the advances made by the Muslims during the Islamic Golden Age? And what ended it? The decline of the Caliphate? Mongol destruction of Baghdad?

My Malaysian cousin would always mention learning about the Islamic Golden Age in his university courses. It's a proud moment in history for the Malays, even though they weren't really involved. History courses in Malaysia nowadays have neglected the rest of the world outside the Islamic one. I don't think they talk about the Greeks or the Romans in class anymore (they did back when my parents were in school there).

I think I'm done defending Uraniborg, I'll let you guys eliminate it and end this battle. Seven more downvotes and the observatory is finished Maybe Firaxis will make Bayt al-Hikma a wonder someday , though I wouldn't be focusing my efforts on building it.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Bayt al-Hikma - 40 - 3 = 37 I would really want to see this added to the game too.
Uraniborg - 20 + 1 = 21 I just like this one a bit more and we could use more astrology related wonders.

 

[Guatenadian]

Bayt al-Hikma - 38 (37+1)
Uraniborg - 18 (21-3)

Ive already stated my reasons in previous posts.

 

[Siptah]

Bayt al-Hikma - 35 (38-3) I'd rather see the IGA represented by more Great People. Many of the greatest representatives of the times have no or almost no connection with it. I'm not against this one though.
Uraniborg - 19 (18+1) Garglkarg

 

[Morningcalm]

Well, you got me there, though I think Zaarin would disagree about your characterization of Medieval Europe. Just curious, what were some of the advances made by the Muslims during the Islamic Golden Age? And what ended it? The decline of the Caliphate? Mongol destruction of Baghdad?

My Malaysian cousin would always mention learning about the Islamic Golden Age in his university courses. It's a proud moment in history for the Malays, even though they weren't really involved. History courses in Malaysia nowadays have neglected the rest of the world outside the Islamic one. I don't think they talk about the Greeks or the Romans in class anymore (they did back when my parents were in school there).

There are a number of theories, but the primary one cited is the Mongolian destruction of Baghdad and the Bayt-al-Hikma. Of course, it's also true that all Golden Ages end, and all glorious empires end eventually as well. Decline is typically the result of failed policies, inner dissension, or new threats (military destruction being one).

I think the Islamic Golden Age is a really worthy topic for education (I learned of it only after seeing a brief mention around the time I played Age of Empires II, might have been in the Saladin campaign which talked about postal offices being established by the "Saracens" as far away as China), particularly at a time when even liberal Europeans are beginning to see value in restricting immigration from Muslim countries. Where people see stereotypes (Muslims as terrorists, etc), we need only point them to history (and common sense) to point out powerful counters to their narrow-minded vision of the world's many diverse glories.

 

[Xandinho]

Bayt al-Hikma - 35 + 1 = 36
Uraniborg - 19 - 3 = 16

Uraniborg is worthy, but I prefer Bayt al-Hikma. I also wish I had enough Islamic wonders.