Never Build Temples?

[Aegis]

I've heard that bit of advice before, but I don't understand why. If I have a city that can put an unhappy citizen to work on a tile that can generate 1+ uncorrupted Commerce, it pays for itself and allows my city to grow and produce more shields.

I understand not needing to build them in every city, ie. not in the part of my empire where corruption is rampant, but never building a temple, not even in my inner-core seems... well, silly. I've tried looking for a thread concerning this, but I have not had any luck finding one. Could someone perhaps shed some light on this for me, please?

Thank you.

 

[capnvonbaron]

"Never" is a common overstatement. Anyone here will tell you that temples are built selectively. On regent and below, with a few luxs+markets and proper slider usage, unhappiness is seldom a problem, so temples are really only good if you're shooting for a culture victory. Also, on regent and below, its generally not hard to snag happy-wonders if you are low on luxs.

On higher levels, its a little more complicated, but again with proper management you should be able to keep enough of the townsfolk happy to at least prevent riots. On the contrary, I seldom use temples even in core cities unless they grow big enough late in the game to merit one. In that case, they should be able to construct the temple in 3 turns or less, so it is more cost-effective than the 15 - 30 turns wasted in the beginning of the game. With small population, the happy-slider is generally more effective than temples anyways. Some people use science farms to combat unhappyness in the outlands... just irrigate everything and turn all the unhappy jerks into beakerheads since all the shields and commerce is hopelessly corrupt anyways. If you are having real happiness issues, its generally a problem of management or too much war with the wrong gov't type, and temples are just a crutch.

 

[vmxa]

Funny, because I do not recall any serious talk of never building a temple. I suspect most tend to read that into any mention of not building temples every where. Evaluate every build in every town, makes sense to me though.

Wait, I think I can say never build coastal forts.

 

[Aegis]

Thanks for your input. I only play at Monarch level and don't use them in a lot of cities. I selectively use them, either only after a city has built a Marketplace and needs more happiness for further growth or if I am trying to reinforce culture near an important corner of my empire.

My standard routine is to bump the Luxury slider up once early in the game, build Marketplaces and then change governments to Republic. I usually have to bump the Luxury slider up another 2-3 notches to compensate for the lost MP happiness, depending on how many Luxury Resources I have at the time.

After then, when populations are reaching for 8+ more, Happiness becomes a problem again and for certain cities that I want maximum production for, I build a Temple. The cities I use Temples for are for cranking out military units ASAP or for maximizing growth and production for any Wonders I want to complete.

Funny, because I do not recall any serious talk of never building a temple. I suspect most tend to read that into any mention of not building temples every where. Evaluate every build in every town, makes sense to me though.

Wait, I think I can say never build coastal forts.

Apparently there is a "Guide" floating around written by someone who everyone praises, where s/he vehemently states "Never build temples, use the luxury slider instead because that benefits all cities." Having failed to track down the guide, I came here for any possible explanation in case I have been missing something obvious.

[Edit:] Maybe I should check the strategy articles section. >.>

 

[capnvonbaron]

Wait, I think I can say never build coastal forts.

hahah yeah those. Things I never, ever build:
1) Coastal forts
2) Solar pps
3) Mass transit
4) Recycling facilities

And things I seldom build:
1) Walls (only in a pinch)
2) Cathedrals (only in giant, unhappy cities or culture games)
3) Nuclear pps (limited effectiveness and come too late in the game)
4) Courthouses (I opt for police depts, since massive corruption is minimal until then and PDs fight war weariness)
5) Coal pps (Most of the time I can snag Hoover's and most non-continent cities don't merit pps. besides... too much pollution)

Of course there are exceptions but that seems to be how my games usually go. One other thing on the use of the slider... if you are REXing appropriately, you can, in many cases, keep cities at a happy size with minimal slider use. Just keep jamming out settlers/workers and keeping cities under size 6 until you get some luxs under your control. It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on it all, which is obvious if you are playing well on monarch difficulty.

 

[absolute zer0]

hahah yeah those. Things I never, ever build:
1) Coastal forts
2) Solar pps
3) Mass transit
4) Recycling facilities

And things I seldom build:
1) Walls (only in a pinch)
2) Cathedrals (only in giant, unhappy cities or culture games)
3) Nuclear pps (limited effectiveness and come too late in the game)
4) Courthouses (I opt for police depts, since massive corruption is minimal until then and PDs fight war weariness)
5) Coal pps (Most of the time I can snag Hoover's and most non-continent cities don't merit pps. besides... too much pollution)

capnvonbaron, we're on the same page! Never build those things, except for cathedral. Love those. I seldom use the happy slider because I like science.
Anywho.....
I build a temple in every one of my cities. One thing people over look is, that it's the cheapest culture producing improvement in the game. So, it will make you people happy AND expand your empire.

 

[Spoonwood]

Mass transit facilities make sense for some space games and also histographic games.

Building or not building a temple depends a lot on playing style and desired victory condition. If you don't plan on taking AI territory, then you might want them at borders at least to prevent flips/*hope* for one, and maybe in the core also so that you keep up in overall culture and help to prevent flips that way. If you play on a big water (80%) archipelago map they often seem *really* handy since trading for luxuries until navigation/magnetism can come as virtually non-existent (even with the Great Lighthouse sometimes). The same goes for luxury poor pangea maps even... although I don't play a lot of them, I'd think on tiny pangea maps (especially with 2 instead of three opponents) where you don't have as many luxuries around the map they'll generally make sense.

 

[Theov]

hahah yeah those. Things I never, ever build:
1) Coastal forts
2) Solar pps
3) Mass transit
4) Recycling facilities

And things I seldom build:
1) Walls (only in a pinch)
2) Cathedrals (only in giant, unhappy cities or culture games)
3) Nuclear pps (limited effectiveness and come too late in the game)
4) Courthouses (I opt for police depts, since massive corruption is minimal until then and PDs fight war weariness)
5) Coal pps (Most of the time I can snag Hoover's and most non-continent cities don't merit pps. besides... too much pollution)

You never have pollution problems?????????
I NEVER build walls (and that never is a really never). I stopped making them after Civ1

 

[Mathias]

One thing people over look is, that it's the cheapest culture producing improvement in the game.

If you're scientific and non-religious, the half-priced library is cheaper.


In some of my games, I have not built a temple before The Oracle, which I have built, becomes obsolete.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Mass transit facilities make sense for some space games and also histographic games.

Why?

You never have pollution problems?????????

Oh yes -- pollution becomes rampant, especially when I go for metros. Very annoying, but its nothing that several stacks of slave workers can't deal with. I guess I never really noticed... when pollution strikes, does it affect production that very turn? Or is it assessed at the end of the turn if it is not cleaned up? I was always pretty sure no penalty if cleaned up on the same turn.

I build a temple in every one of my cities. One thing people over look is, that it's the cheapest culture producing improvement in the game. So, it will make you people happy AND expand your empire

So do libraries. And libraries make science, which to me is far more useful than one content citizen, especially in the outlands. There, I don't care how many are unhappy; they get turned into scientists. For a game where you wish a 100K culture victory, then yes temples go in all cities. For all other victory conditions, generally waste of shields and maintenance. Best used sparingly.

 

[Mathias]

When pollution strikes, the citizen working that tile will be reassigned. If no other tile is available, the citizen becomes a specialist. You lose all food, production and commerce from the polluted tile.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

When pollution strikes, the citizen working that tile will be reassigned. If no other tile is available, the citizen becomes a specialist. You lose all food, production and commerce from the polluted tile.

Assuming you immediately clear pollution after it struck, you won't lose the commerce. It is calculated separately before the production cicle. If you need every single beaker in order to get a certain tech on time this can be really really helpful. Pollution may screw up you builds, but not your tech research.

 

[Bucephalus]

Funny, because I do not recall any serious talk of never building a temple.

This seems like serious talk...

Ok, you asked for it.




The Temple Rant

Temples...temples...priests are prevaricating parasites who pillage the body politic.

You want culture, build libraries. You get something back from the investment.

You want content citizens, build marketplaces, trade for luxuries, build towns for luxuries, build colonies for luxuries.

If happiness is a problem in a settler or worker farm, it is a self-limiting problem. Raise the luxury tax, hire an MP, you only need to make the expenditure for a couple of turns. Temples are with you forever and are a permanent drag on the economy.

Understatement...bah!

 

[Sharwood]

This seems like serious talk...

That's an awesome rant.

 

[Aegis]

So do libraries. And libraries make science, which to me is far more useful than one content citizen, especially in the outlands.

Don't Libraries multiply the science output based on the city's commerce? If that is correct, then that means that Libraries are also useless in the corruption-heavy boonies.

 

[Sharwood]

Don't Libraries multiply the science output based on the city's commerce? If that is correct, then that means that Libraries are also useless in the corruption-heavy boonies.

They multiply it based on beakers, not commerce. Makes them useful in science farms, potentially, depending on how much science they're producing.

 

[Aegis]

They multiply it based on beakers, not commerce. Makes them useful in science farms, potentially, depending on how much science they're producing.

But Beakers are converted from Commerce, right?

 

[Aabraxan]

Don't Libraries multiply the science output based on the city's commerce? If that is correct, then that means that Libraries are also useless in the corruption-heavy boonies.

They multiply it based on beakers, not commerce. Makes them useful in science farms, potentially, depending on how much science they're producing.

I disagree with your assessment here, Sharwood. I think Aegis has it right. Corruption and upkeep are taken "off the top" from any commerce produced by a city. What's left is then allocated to science, luxury, and treasury. In the "corruption-heavy boonies," where cities are only producing 1 or 2 non-specialist beakers, libraries aren't worth their cost. Specialist beakers are neither subject to corruption, nor are they affected by multiplier buildings. There's an article on multipliers linked in my sig.

Edited to add: Going back to temples: The Bedean Rant is fantastic! I'm one of the ones who rarely build temples, but even I believe that there's a time and place for them. It's a matter of understanding the costs and return on the investments.

 

[Sharwood]

I thought scientists added beakers outside of those produced by commerce?

 

[Aabraxan]

They do, but the beakers that the scientists add are not "run through" the library. Only those beakers generated through commerce are multiplied by the library.