New Beta Version - February 22nd (2/22)

[PurpleMentat]

I'm not happy with the level of civilian penalty. It feels like one more thing we can't do without becoming the target of every civ in the game. For all the negative modifiers there are and more being added, and the level of them, there are very few positive modifiers we can actively use to balance them out. We should be able to secure an ally or two despite these penalties if we put the effort in to developing those relationships. As it stands now, the only chance to do that is to get a DoF with them before you accrue any negative modifiers, so you can get them involved in one of your first wars to gain the 'common foe' bonus.

 

[darko82]

I'm not happy with the level of civilian penalty. It feels like one more thing we can't do without becoming the target of every civ in the game. For all the negative modifiers there are and more being added, and the level of them, there are very few positive modifiers we can actively use to balance them out. We should be able to secure an ally or two despite these penalties if we put the effort in to developing those relationships. As it stands now, the only chance to do that is to get a DoF with them before you accrue any negative modifiers, so you can get them involved in one of your first wars to gain the 'common foe' bonus.

Just do not steal workers. The AI does not steal your workers this way. Steal it; face the consequences. Something for something. I think it is a good change.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Just do not steal workers. The AI does not steal your workers this way. Steal it; face the consequences. Something for something. I think it is a good change.

Or steal the Workers and report how the penalties stack up. There will be different values for each unit later on, hopefully.

 

[Gazebo]

How many quests are there or quest types, I wonder?

Total quests? 33. 18 base game, 10 from CSD, 5 from CBP.

Possible rewards:

Spoiler :

• CSInfluence
• GPPoints
• GPPointsGlobal
• Experience
• Gold
• Culture
• Faith
• Science
• Food
• Production
• GAP
• Happiness
• GeneralPoints
• AdmiralPoints
• Tourism

 

[darko82]

Or steal the Workers and report how the penalties stack up. There will be different values for each unit later on, hopefully.

Yeah, I guess, but the AI is now able to see it as something negative; it is not so "blind" about it now. Maybe it is something that will make people stop stealing workers?

 

[PurpleMentat]

Just do not steal workers. The AI does not steal your workers this way. Steal it; face the consequences. Something for something. I think it is a good change.

The AI doesn't have to steal workers. They start with one, or can produce one in a couple turns. Getting a global penalty for slavery feels very immersion breaking when slavery was a global practice until fairly recently in human history. Getting an extreme penalty with the specific civ I'm enslaving I can understand.

Further, the true complaint here is not the worker issue specifically. It's the lack of options to build a positive relationship. I can walk a tightrope of neutrality, hoping to get a Declaration of Friendship before border tensions make that impossible, or I can be a monster. The positive modifiers that do exist are few and weak, except for the common foe. So, hilariously, the best way to make friends is to be an opportunistic warmonger who joins in on as many conflicts as possible. Nothing else really seems to matter.

And then ideologies come along and all your prior diplomatic actions are pointless in the face of the massive opinion swing those bring.

 

[zeta]

These changes are... orgasmic! BTW, any clues when we'll get the next full version? I mean, it's been some time

 

[Funak]

The AI doesn't have to steal workers. They start with one, or can produce one in a couple turns. Getting a global penalty for slavery feels very immersion breaking when slavery was a global practice until fairly recently in human history. Getting an extreme penalty with the specific civ I'm enslaving I can understand.

Further, the true complaint here is not the worker issue specifically. It's the lack of options to build a positive relationship. I can walk a tightrope of neutrality, hoping to get a Declaration of Friendship before border tensions make that impossible, or I can be a monster. The positive modifiers that do exist are few and weak, except for the common foe. So, hilariously, the best way to make friends is to be an opportunistic warmonger who joins in on as many conflicts as possible. Nothing else really seems to matter.

And then ideologies come along and all your prior diplomatic actions are pointless in the face of the massive opinion swing those bring.

Stealing their civilian units completely crippled the AI, you know that, whining about it only makes you look bad. The only other option here was making civilian units unattackable for the first X turns of a war, which makes even less sense.

 

[Gazebo]

Or steal the Workers and report how the penalties stack up. There will be different values for each unit later on, hopefully.

This, please. The function is currently 'static,' though it does adjust for era. It also cools off relatively quickly, so it's more-or-less a spike of negative opinion. That said, it's also iteration 1, so feedback is needed before we make it 'live.'

Also, need feedback on CS quest values (i.e. too expensive, not worth it, etc.).

These changes are... orgasmic! BTW, any clues when we'll get the next full version? I mean, it's been some time

Variable rewards for CSs was final feature change for this version, so now I'm moving on to some smaller balance issues and feedback/bugfix of new stuff. Then new 'official' version. This one's pretty solid, though.

G

 

[Gazebo]

The AI doesn't have to steal workers. They start with one, or can produce one in a couple turns. Getting a global penalty for slavery feels very immersion breaking when slavery was a global practice until fairly recently in human history. Getting an extreme penalty with the specific civ I'm enslaving I can understand.

Further, the true complaint here is not the worker issue specifically. It's the lack of options to build a positive relationship. I can walk a tightrope of neutrality, hoping to get a Declaration of Friendship before border tensions make that impossible, or I can be a monster. The positive modifiers that do exist are few and weak, except for the common foe. So, hilariously, the best way to make friends is to be an opportunistic warmonger who joins in on as many conflicts as possible. Nothing else really seems to matter.

And then ideologies come along and all your prior diplomatic actions are pointless in the face of the massive opinion swing those bring.

Opinion is important, but how a civ responds to it varies so much more as of the prior beta. It isn't guaranteed that negative opinion will lead to a denouncement, or war, or hostility, as some civs just don't care what you do as a warmonger.

That said, I'm absolutely open to numbers suggestions on ideology and positive diplo modifiers. If something feels unfair or not rewarding, let's discuss it.

G

 

[JFD]

Hooray and thank you! With those changes to Quests, I can't keep putting off CSD support viz. Claims for much longer

 

[Gazebo]

Hooray and thank you! With those changes to Quests, I can't keep putting off CSD support viz. Claims for much longer

Well, the new quests are in the CBP, and the changes are part of the CP, so you're only missing out on the added CSD quests.

G

Quick question: anyone else seeing naval units sometimes spawn (when produced in a city) embarked?

G

 

[supracseduch]

These are really great changes. I love the new CS quests. I only worry about the "Settle a War" quest, since I can see myself always trying to become the ally of both CS's rather than conquering either of them. Allying both of them looks easier and possibly more rewarding (you don't get a CS territory, but you're rewarded by both CS's). You also avoid major warmonger penalties from capturing a CS, if there's any associated with this quest.

 

[Atlas627]

These look like absolutely fantastic changes! While I'm at it, I'll report 2 issues I had with my previous game (in the prior patch, but I doubt anythings changed)

1) Arena seems to be giving +1 culture to Perfume, though the tooltip says +2.

2) Wind Plant asks for non-river, but I think it should ask for no Water Plant.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Added plague and river tile stuff for JFD

Is that behind the scenes for modders only?

As for the civilian capture modifier...
I do agree with PM here - there is a dearth of positive diplo modifiers. Also, the AI often hides civilians inside their cities (which is perfectly reasonable). So if I take the City now, will I get the civilian malus on top, or does it only occur if I take them in the open?
Also, is there a difference if the units are captured (like great prophets) or instantly killed (like great scientists)?
I can even think of a human exploit: If I want to isolate an AI, I grab a bunch of workers (they are expandable in later ages), round them up towards it, and then declare. If the AI does't take the bait right away, I will sweeten it by putting a military unit on top that it has to kill. If it still wont bite, at least I have an unstoppable pillage team.

The new quest system - that sounds really awesome. Can't wait to try it!

 

[Funak]

Also, the AI often hides civilians inside their cities (which is perfectly reasonable). So if I take the City now, will I get the civilian malus on top, or does it only occur if I take them in the open?

G said this wouldn't be a problem, but from what I've seen so far it actually is.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Capturing or killing civilian units during war now incurs a diplo penalty - at a high enough level, the penalty becomes global (i.e. its seen as a war crime). Penalty decays over time, but very slowly (if at all) if the civ hates you.

I like that from the side of immersion. Gameplaywise it is working for me, as long as the AI plays under the same rules (= an AI stealing workers/killing Great people does incur the same hate from others AIs as I do; I'm convinced that's the case because Gazebo has fixed the missing inter-AI-relation-modifiers a few versions ago) and it understands them (= Warmongering leaders and civs do it anyway, because it's the way the play and they just don't care, while the pacifist ones avoid it...maybe only as long as the aren't attacked with the same cruel means. I'm hoping here as well that our great Gazebo has already taken care of that )

 

[tompliss]

These are really great changes. I love the new CS quests. I only worry about the "Settle a War" quest, since I can see myself always trying to become the ally of both CS's rather than conquering either of them. Allying both of them looks easier and possibly more rewarding (you don't get a CS territory, but you're rewarded by both CS's). You also avoid major warmonger penalties from capturing a CS, if there's any associated with this quest.

I haven't played the new beta but I really worry about this part too :
Allying 2 city-states usually is pretty easy to do.
As those will be at war, they will have the "triple influence reduction", but still...

 

[Tomice]

Amazing changes! Wow! The ambitiousness of this projects is amazing!
Overall, all changes sound very promising.

I do however agree that more ways to actively improve the relationship to major civs would be beneficial. "Green" diplo modifiers like "we are trading partners" are rare and give only a few points, while it's easy to get a ton of negative modifiers even without being a dick.

BTW, how many positive points would you get for a substantial gift? Like giving them two of your surplus horses without asking for anything in return? Or 1000 gold? Or a luxury? Do such things pay off?




Another thing: Coastal cities became even more vulnerable now without the "second garrison". And navies became less important due to the nerf of their role in city defense. Please consider adding a compensation, to not make coastal cities unattractive. Ideally both something defensive and maybe a tiny bit of extra yields for non-ressource coastal tiles - they are basically nonexistant tiles right now (working them is always "bad").

The fact that coastal gameplay is important now and the oceans feel alive and vivid is one of the biggest achievements of this mod (especially when using the amazing Communitas map, which often creates fantastic "mediterrenean" settings). I doubt I have to tell you how important the role of naval trade was historically. I would love to see this bit of historical accuracy remain - actually, I would love to see it emphasized.

 

[merill]

I like that from the side of immersion. Gameplaywise it is working for me, as long as the AI plays under the same rules (= an AI stealing workers/killing Great people does incur the same hate from others AIs as I do; I'm convinced that's the case because Gazebo has fixed the missing inter-AI-relation-modifiers a few versions ago) and it understands them (= Warmongering leaders and civs do it anyway, because it's the way the play and they just don't care, while the pacifist ones avoid it...maybe only as long as the aren't attacked with the same cruel means. I'm hoping here as well that our great Gazebo has already taken care of that )

I fear it can be exploited by players (making some worker walls).
It cripple the mobility of war units.
A solution may be to add the "liberation" menu for all civilian capture (ie, destroy/steal or "liberate"). With this, we can move armies in tile occupied by civilians without suffering the penalty, the ai keeping his unit.

Another thing: Coastal cities became even more vulnerable now without the "second garrison". And navies became less important due to the nerf of their role in city defense. Please consider adding a compensation, to not make coastal cities unattractive. Ideally both something defensive and maybe a tiny bit of extra yields for non-ressource coastal tiles - they are basically nonexistant tiles right now (working them is always "bad").

Maybe just increase the number of fish in the map generator?