New Beta Version - February 22nd (2/22)

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Hm, I'm in two minds about the diplo hit for capturing civilian units.
In theory it sounds like a nice feature, but sometimes you just cannot avoid it, e.g. when they are hiding in cities you conquer or blocking your way. So you would get an extra penality for something you can't get around.

This is already compensated for (Civilians in cities have significantly less value towards the civilian-killer diplomod).

Now, for things actually pertaining to this Beta, G's response to Lynnes' question implies that the "Naval unit firing from City/Fort" restriction also applies to the CP. Did I read that correctly?

Yes, as it was an unintended side effect of Firaxis's loopy spaghetti that we've no ironed out.

I'm under the impression that in civilization, a game about empire-building, you should never be encouraged to avoid expanding.

Why? I think there should be pros and cons for each strategy. Neither wide nor tall is specifically better in the CBP, which is the design intent. Expand if you want/need, don't if you, well, don't. Arabia isn't crippled by expansion, because – and this is something we've discussed before – expansion is a zero-sum game. What you have, someone else does not have. Raw UA efficacy may go down, but absolute benefit does not.

What if we give coast and ocean tile the same functionality as villages/towns - so they get extra gold for every cargo ship route that passes over them?

It's not the worst idea I've heard. I'll need to think on it, both for balance and also for 'readability' on the map (i.e. how would a player know this is happening). I don't think it should 'stack,' per se, as that's much harder to balance.

Alternatively, a modest sea-tile yield increase on the harbor, lighthouse, and the two coastal wonders could help them scale into the later game without having to mess with an obtuse TR mechanic. By the Renaissance you have access to the Imperialism finisher which, if you haven't tried it, is absolutely fantastic for sea-tiles.

I think cargo ship TRs could go for a slight boost in % gold value over caravans as well.

I guess it would be a simple copy-paste job for our code experts?

Nothing is ever that simple, unless it is. :)

G
 
in this latest beta the animations for sea units is wrong somethimes!!

submarines can look like embarked boats instead and frigate like another boat!


never happend in earlier betas!!
 
in this latest beta the animations for sea units is wrong somethimes!!

submarines can look like embarked boats instead and frigate like another boat!


never happend in earlier betas!!

I already noted this. It's purely cosmetic, so enjoy it for now.

G
 
It's not the worst idea I've heard. I'll need to think on it, both for balance and also for 'readability' on the map (i.e. how would a player know this is happening). I don't think it should 'stack,' per se, as that's much harder to balance.

Alternatively, a modest sea-tile yield increase on the harbor, lighthouse, and the two coastal wonders could help them scale into the later game without having to mess with an obtuse TR mechanic. By the Renaissance you have access to the Imperialism finisher which, if you haven't tried it, is absolutely fantastic for sea-tiles.

I think cargo ship TRs could go for a slight boost in % gold value over caravans as well.

My suggestion might open a can of worms balance-wise, I'm aware of that. Plus it's way more complicated than simple yield-increases. I'd be fully content with simple yield-changes, as long as coastal cities stay viable (actually, they've always been far "better" historically - Venice couldn't have become a global player as landlocked city!).

Then again, a slight bit of complicated-ness and unpredictability can be fun, right? :D

Nothing is ever that simple, unless it is. :)
G

We're talking about Master G here, you know? :lol:
 
My suggestion might open a can of worms balance-wise, I'm aware of that. Plus it's way more complicated than simple yield-increases. I'd be fully content with simple yield-changes, as long as coastal cities stay viable (actually, they've always been far "better" historically - Venice couldn't have become a global player as landlocked city!).

Then again, a slight bit of complicated-ness and unpredictability can be fun, right? :D



We're talking about Master G here, you know? :lol:

Yield increases have the knock-on benefit of being immediately understood by the AI with my existing AI sanity system. So there's that. Probably the direction I'll go, truth be told.

G
 
It's not the worst idea I've heard. I'll need to think on it, both for balance and also for 'readability' on the map (i.e. how would a player know this is happening). I don't think it should 'stack,' per se, as that's much harder to balance.

Alternatively, a modest sea-tile yield increase on the harbor, lighthouse, and the two coastal wonders could help them scale into the later game without having to mess with an obtuse TR mechanic. By the Renaissance you have access to the Imperialism finisher which, if you haven't tried it, is absolutely fantastic for sea-tiles.

I think cargo ship TRs could go for a slight boost in % gold value over caravans as well.

G

I think Lighthouse should get less of a buff to sea tiles but give some base yields instead just like Granary and others have some. There's never a reason to buy a Lighthouse if you don't have Fish/Coral/Whales/Pearls/Crabs/Atolls, if it got some bonus it'd become at least situational. Harbour at least is relatively cost effective if you don't want lots of roads and also gets some nice production bonus on sea units as well as unlocks advanced water units.

Maybe Lighthouse should be given +1Gold for every 4-5 water tiles in city's borders and +1 base Production?
 
after a few games now I noticed that the mint building is missing? was it intentionally removed, if so what was the reason, seems like almost all resources are buffed by some particular buildings now but gold and silver aren't
 
after a few games now I noticed that the mint building is missing? was it intentionally removed, if so what was the reason, seems like almost all resources are buffed by some particular buildings now but gold and silver aren't

Bank upgrades Gold and Silver (and sth else but I forgot, Gems I think)
 
after a few games now I noticed that the mint building is missing? was it intentionally removed, if so what was the reason, seems like almost all resources are buffed by some particular buildings now but gold and silver aren't

It's been the customs house building for some time now.

I think Lighthouse should get less of a buff to sea tiles but give some base yields instead just like Granary and others have some. There's never a reason to buy a Lighthouse if you don't have Fish/Coral/Whales/Pearls/Crabs/Atolls, if it got some bonus it'd become at least situational. Harbour at least is relatively cost effective if you don't want lots of roads and also gets some nice production bonus on sea units as well as unlocks advanced water units.

Lighthouses do buff sea tiles - +1 food on all of them. Makes them 'pay for themselves' in food value. Not great, really. An additional +1 food, or a +1 gold, would be a nice bump in value.

G
 
I would very much like to see the Harbor provide some tile bonuses to sea tiles. Food and gold bonuses would make sense. Perhaps we can even diversify? Research Lab could provide a Science bonus to coastal and sea tiles. Hotels could add culture or gold.

So much of human life revolves around the sea. I know a solid effort has been made to make inland cities competitive, but I'm not certain that's in the best interest of the game. The world's superpowers have almost entirely been coastal for a reason, with the exceptions notable for being a rare exception. Until modern times, landlocked nations simple could not compete.

As far as the diplomacy modifiers go, the biggest issue I have is all the positive modifiers require you to already have good relations. Declaration of Friendship and Open Borders are the largest modifiers that don't involve war which I'm aware of. If I've slighted someone, sometimes without even intending too, there's no climbing out of that hole. Right now I have someone that's Hostile because we're competing for the same city-states, competing for the same world wonders, my behavior worries them, and my recent diplomatic actions disappoint them. I met them ten turns ago in a 200 turn Epic game. The little bonus I have from an embassy and lack of contested borders means nothing in the face of those modifiers. They won't sell me open borders for 100gpt and 3 luxuries, so there's no real chance of converting them to my religion (which is seen as a hostile action if they have founded a religion). Giving people gifts through the diplomacy UI seems to have no effect on their opinion of me. Giving in to their demands has no positive effect, failing to do so has a negative effect.

Diplomacy feels like a tightrope walk. There is a very specific playstyle that will stop someone from hating you, and one slip is all it takes to be heading down the path of irrevocable eternal enmity. I don't know the right solution for this.

As for ideology, I currently have DoF, mutual DoF, open borders, adopted my religion, no contested borders, embassy, and trade partners modifiers with Theodora. According to transparent diplomacy, that's +83. Last time I checked, the Ideology modifier was larger than that. Even if it isn't, if we pick differing ideologies, she will befriend those of the same ideology. Some of those will denounce me, and then she will denounce me and end all of our positive arrangements. I have no method of influencing her towards an ideology that allows us to stay allies.

Generally, I feel pretty powerless to effect international relations through peaceful methods. Non-peaceful methods are being punished more harshly now that there is a global penalty for killing civilians. My options seem to be polarizing towards 'stay in my corner and don't bother anyone' or 'take up the sword and burn the world to the ground' with no option for making a strong ally that I can peacefully coexist with as I grow stronger.

Side note, it's nearly Turn 200. I have fully converted Theodora to Islam. She has not founded her own religion, and is in late Classical age. She grabbed Earth Mother fairly early and has a Jade heavy start. First time I've seen this behavior from her.
 
Yield increases have the knock-on benefit of being immediately understood by the AI with my existing AI sanity system. So there's that. Probably the direction I'll go, truth be told.

Of course.
May I suggest adding some of the extra yields to the base tile? It would make dedicating research towards naval techs less of a gamble. Or at least give coastal starting position a few more useful tiles while hoping for fish to show up. And help the lighthouse to be somewhat useful even if none appear.

I think Lighthouse should get less of a buff to sea tiles but give some base yields instead just like Granary and others have some. There's never a reason to buy a Lighthouse if you don't have Fish/Coral/Whales/Pearls/Crabs/Atolls, if it got some bonus it'd become at least situational. Harbour at least is relatively cost effective if you don't want lots of roads and also gets some nice production bonus on sea units as well as unlocks advanced water units.

Maybe Lighthouse should be given +1Gold for every 4-5 water tiles in city's borders and +1 base Production?

Your suggestion sounds interesting, but would also be borderline OP on small, isolated islands (surrounded by only water).
But in general, I don't think the lighthouse is the problem, but the uselessness of normal water tiles.

Coasts have always been relatively prosperous everywhere in the world, while areas in the center of large landmasses usually remained isolated and underdeveloped up to the present day (at least without shipable rivers).
Considering this, I'd say coast tiles should be clearly better than non-ressorce riverless land tiles, and slightly better or at least equal to riverside non-ressource tiles.
 
I would very much like to see the Harbor provide some tile bonuses to sea tiles. Food and gold bonuses would make sense. Perhaps we can even diversify? Research Lab could provide a Science bonus to coastal and sea tiles. Hotels could add culture or gold.

So much of human life revolves around the sea. I know a solid effort has been made to make inland cities competitive, but I'm not certain that's in the best interest of the game. The world's superpowers have almost entirely been coastal for a reason, with the exceptions notable for being a rare exception. Until modern times, landlocked nations simple could not compete.

As far as the diplomacy modifiers go, the biggest issue I have is all the positive modifiers require you to already have good relations. Declaration of Friendship and Open Borders are the largest modifiers that don't involve war which I'm aware of. If I've slighted someone, sometimes without even intending too, there's no climbing out of that hole. Right now I have someone that's Hostile because we're competing for the same city-states, competing for the same world wonders, my behavior worries them, and my recent diplomatic actions disappoint them. I met them ten turns ago in a 200 turn Epic game. The little bonus I have from an embassy and lack of contested borders means nothing in the face of those modifiers. They won't sell me open borders for 100gpt and 3 luxuries, so there's no real chance of converting them to my religion (which is seen as a hostile action if they have founded a religion). Giving people gifts through the diplomacy UI seems to have no effect on their opinion of me. Giving in to their demands has no positive effect, failing to do so has a negative effect.

Diplomacy feels like a tightrope walk. There is a very specific playstyle that will stop someone from hating you, and one slip is all it takes to be heading down the path of irrevocable eternal enmity. I don't know the right solution for this.

As for ideology, I currently have DoF, mutual DoF, open borders, adopted my religion, no contested borders, embassy, and trade partners modifiers with Theodora. According to transparent diplomacy, that's +83. Last time I checked, the Ideology modifier was larger than that. Even if it isn't, if we pick differing ideologies, she will befriend those of the same ideology. Some of those will denounce me, and then she will denounce me and end all of our positive arrangements. I have no method of influencing her towards an ideology that allows us to stay allies.

Generally, I feel pretty powerless to effect international relations through peaceful methods. Non-peaceful methods are being punished more harshly now that there is a global penalty for killing civilians. My options seem to be polarizing towards 'stay in my corner and don't bother anyone' or 'take up the sword and burn the world to the ground' with no option for making a strong ally that I can peacefully coexist with as I grow stronger.

Side note, it's nearly Turn 200. I have fully converted Theodora to Islam. She has not founded her own religion, and is in late Classical age. She grabbed Earth Mother fairly early and has a Jade heavy start. First time I've seen this behavior from her.

Let's move this to a new thread, as I really do want to discuss this. I think we should list out all the positive/negative diplo modifiers and see where we need to tweak them.

G
 
I already noted this. It's purely cosmetic, so enjoy it for now.

G

I just had a great naval game ruined because of this bug. It isn't just cosmetic. The boats can't heal since they are "embarked".
 
Well that's a shame, sorry. Thanks for testing the beta! :blush:

G

Its ok, thats what its for!

By the way, I absolutely love the varied types and amounts of awards for CS quests. Its absolutely fantastic.

Just about the only thing that I think still blatantly sucks about CS is that there's pretty much no reason to ever NOT declare protection. Is it possible to add a diplomatic modifier (and notification, so the human can act too) to all known civs when you fail to protect (and maybe when you stand up for the CS)? Currently only the CS will get upset, and honestly I either gained more influence from protection x quest than I lose from abandoning them or I don't need them anyway or I have so much influence it doesn't matter. Diplomatic modifiers to other civs are far more important to me.
 
Hm, I'm in two minds about the diplo hit for capturing civilian units.
In theory it sounds like a nice feature, but sometimes you just cannot avoid it, e.g. when they are hiding in cities you conquer or blocking your way. So you would get an extra penality for something you can't get around.

It's pretty bad to be honest.

Yes, sniping AI workers is a chesse move, but this is why I don't do it normally.

However, when you are in a actual war, it's something you can get around somtimes. If we get an choice when we enter a civ tile, it would work. As it stands now it opens up even more chesse options. (Late game workers are cheap as hell and can be used as human shields to either block units or force the AI to tank its relations with everyone)
 
It's pretty bad to be honest.

Yes, sniping AI workers is a chesse move, but this is why I don't do it normally.

However, when you are in a actual war, it's something you can get around somtimes. If we get an choice when we enter a civ tile, it would work. As it stands now it opens up even more chesse options. (Late game workers are cheap as hell and can be used as human shields to either block units or force the AI to tank its relations with everyone)

I agree!
This new rule seems to be very controversial. Maybe Gazebo can make it optional in the options-file, so that everyone can chose if he wants it or not?
 
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