New Beta Version - March 1st (3-1)

[Recursive]

Before you assume it is the handicap causing the spike in potency, please check the handicap logs for evidence.



Incorrect- the only things missing from my CP 'fix' version are the changes made by ilteroi.

G

Ah, I thought all the changes were reverted back to 2-9, but I must have misinterpreted. My bad, will correct my post.

 

[Tekamthi]

I know, it's deity. It should be hard. It was probably a bit to easy before. But this is just unplayable. It's very enjoyable for the first 150ish turns or so. That is about for as long as I have managed to keep up in a couple of games now cause after that the snowball is real and it's just unbeatable. There was some kind of tech, policy, wonder parity up until that point. During the next 100 turns or so the snowball just starts rollin' cranking out techs, policies and wonder like there was no tomorrow.

In the next 100 turns, slighlty less, their (Morroco, I don't know if it's just them or what is up but I don't think so -- India isn't far behind in this game either but the rest of us are just eating dust) capital almost triple in size to 27, India isn't far behind at 25. The third largest capital in the world is 15. They only build two more cities (from 5 to 7), but go from 27 to 123 pops. Morroco complete almost an entire policy branch as others gain two-three policies. Morroco builds 8 wonders during this period. The tech span was all civs within four techs of each other. Morroco wasn't even the leader -- Siam had constructed the great library and was on top. So in less then a hundred turns they research 24 new techs on top of what they already had. That is almost a tech every fourth turn, on epic speed (there is no tech trading or brokering or anything of the sort). I would say it's impossible to keep up with it. When I, and the "normal" civs, do one tech -- they will have done 3-4.

Not being satisfied with this, Morroco manages to spread their faith to 30 cities making it larger then all other religions in the world combined. They didn't even get the first religion, it was the third. They now cover themselves, three others civs and seven city-states. Also they somehow also managed getting defensive pacts with five other nations.

I tried being a bastard and do an early war start, running around hunting settlers etc. I captured three of them. Did that even put a dent in the AI and their settling spree? Nope.

I could play on a lesser level but I'm not sure there is much point to it. The snowball is there to, just not as hard. But from what I can tell here fairly hard.

This sounds a lot like my current game, pretty much every aspect you mention is there in some way.. 43 civ deity marathon.. I've hung in the top 5, usually a close 2nd through to start of atomic, by leveraging early conquest.. I have 1.5x number of cities of next largest, a little bloated maybe but they're all relatively productive. Morocco's pretty much done the tech tree all of a sudden, despite having been sanctioned since start of Congress.. I had reeled em in several times, climbing about even in tech (but not policies), and then era changes and I'm way behind.. my fall to 5th came as AI entered atomic.. suddenly my 3-city-vassal India has more techs than me.. fun game overall though, was a contender for a good 950+ turns. Morocco will win though there may be some fireworks before it's over yet.

 

[CrazyG]

I pulled off a Deity win on this version. Authority Songhai, I captured all 3 capitals on my continent by turn 100, which included a lot of wonders. Got a religion with scholarship and just cruised from there. The other continents don't have a chance against my army and navy, but cities take forever to conquer in the late game, even with a blockade.

The bump to 5CS does help city defense a lot, however the AI has a habit of moving out their garrisons occasioanlly. I saw Assyria had moved out his spearman, and I had two horsemen nearby so I just declared war, free city.

I'm brainstorming a plan to win peacefully on Deity, I think it can be done.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I could play on a lesser level but I'm not sure there is much point to it.

I would say give it a try anyway.

I did really well in that one game with Morocco and marble, stone, 2 horses and 2 lapis lazuli around my capital. Since then I've been right near the bottom though (playing Byzantium). I'm probably going down a difficulty just to get a better idea of how things play out later in the game.

 

[andersw]

Before you assume it is the handicap causing the spike in potency, please check the handicap logs for evidence.



Incorrect- the only things missing from my CP 'fix' version are the changes made by ilteroi.

G

So the difference between the "fix" version and regular 3.1 is diplo changes, right?

 

[Cokolwiek]

I pulled off a Deity win on this version. Authority Songhai, I captured all 3 capitals on my continent by turn 100, which included a lot of wonders.

I saw Assyria had moved out his spearman, and I had two horsemen nearby so I just declared war, free city.

I don't think such a specific setting with early war which is basically cheating since some time with early city strength, very special civ and early powerful unique unit is a good judgement on difficulty. We should have variety of playstyles open to many civs, even on deity, and early wonders when beelined should be available to the player. And two horseman shouldn't be able take a city. Feels like deity now is possible only through exploits.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't think such a specific setting with early war which is basically cheating since some time with early city strength, very special civ and early powerful unique unit is a good judgement on difficulty. We should have variety of playstyles open to many civs, even on deity, and early wonders when beelined should be available to the player. And two horseman shouldn't be able take a city.

That's why I keep advocating higher city strength, but regardless I think peaceful play is possible this patch. You just need the right civ, a decent start, and good decision making.

Feels like deity now is possible only through exploits.

I strongly disagree but I guess this depends on how you define "exploit". I don't think building a unique unit when its available and using it to attack cities is an exploit, its clearly an intentional feature.

Actually I think the most unbalanced part of that game was that I had God of the Open Sky, which remains a very unfair pantheon.

 

[andersw]

So it seems inquisitors only work every second era.
Did not work in medival, worked in renaissance and again stopped working in industrial.

 

[Cokolwiek]

That's why I keep advocating higher city strength, but regardless I think peaceful play is possible this patch. You just need the right civ, a decent start, and good decision making.

I agree absolutely on higher initial city strength, scaling less by population. I don't want to be forced to be choose concrete civ to concrete playstyle. I like to roleplay, sometimes historically, like warmongering, wide Germany, or neutral, tall Japan or Sweden, which is not always optimal under current uniques. It is dull to play peaceful, cultural tradition as Brasil (does anyone knows even one painter or musician from there?), not as Rome, England, France, or America, which were cultural superpowers.
I think good decision making should always be most impactful and civ choice more a flavour.

I strongly disagree but I guess this depends on how you define "exploit". I don't think building a unique unit when its available and using it to attack cities is an exploit, its clearly an intentional feature.

I didn't mean to undermine your victory, I just think exploting AI defficencies with early city strength and ai pushing unit out of towns and generally three capitals under turn 100. It is like taking whole Eurasia, or Africa before medieval era. Little realism killer, and it would be possible if you gave some more time for ai to develop.
It is too much combined with warlike civ. If I do want to conquer all the world as Brasil if I was Brasilian I should be able too, not be locked to Zulu or Songhai.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't want to be forced to be choose concrete civ to concrete playstyle.

I agree with your principal, and I think there is a solution already. The high difficulties exist to challenge you, and the lower ones exist for historical roleplaying. Each person can choose their flavor.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Actually I think the most unbalanced part of that game was that I had God of the Open Sky, which remains a very unfair pantheon.

How so, unfair?

The high difficulties exist to challenge you, and the lower ones exist for historical roleplaying

I think all of us have some degree of one and some degree of the other.

Each person can choose their flavor.

I agree with you on that. I play on Emperor at the moment and like to role-play, but I also choose my favourite game and map settings. There's a lot of variety for people to choose from, and each person can play the way that they like to.

 

[Bromar1]

I agree with your principal, and I think there is a solution already. The high difficulties exist to challenge you, and the lower ones exist for historical roleplaying. Each person can choose their flavor.

What would you say is the hardest civ to win with on deity?

 

[Cokolwiek]

I agree with your principal, and I think there is a solution already. The high difficulties exist to challenge you, and the lower ones exist for historical roleplaying. Each person can choose their flavor.

No, no, no. I have never too much trouble with roleplaying on deity till now, balance was pretty okay, and I don't think we should change that. Increase difficulty generally yes, but not to lock players to certain civs. Select goddamn Zulu you know nothing about and achieved nothing if you want more easy or much safer domination. Select Russia or Germany if you have want more holistic experience experience for a price of more challenge. But no to be locked out.

 

[tu_79]

I'm uncertain if I'm playing the fixed version, probably not, I didn't download any file from Github.
But I'm seen a strange bug that doesn't auto select units with remaining actions. Hitting Next turn does nothing until all units are done with their actions. It forces me to check one by one which unit has not already moved and give it its orders. It's becoming difficult as the game advances, since the number of units is also increasing.
It does not happen every turn, but now and then.

 

[CrazyG]

How so, unfair?

It's just better than other pantheons in my opinion.

What would you say is the hardest civ to win with on deity?

Venice.

 

[crdvis16]

I'm uncertain if I'm playing the fixed version, probably not, I didn't download any file from Github.
But I'm seen a strange bug that doesn't auto select units with remaining actions. Hitting Next turn does nothing until all units are done with their actions. It forces me to check one by one which unit has not already moved and give it its orders. It's becoming difficult as the game advances, since the number of units is also increasing.
It does not happen every turn, but now and then.

I saw this in a game a week or so ago (so a previous version, probably still 2-9). It was a worker who I think had his action cancelled somehow but who wasn't showing up as needing to be commanded before next turn would work. I eventually figured it out and it only happened that once.

 

[andersw]

I agree with your principal, and I think there is a solution already. The high difficulties exist to challenge you, and the lower ones exist for historical roleplaying. Each person can choose their flavor.

Its a difference in experience, mindset and comfort zones Diety is way way to hard for many players (including myself).
But sure if you never make any mistakes, see every opportunity and such, but then the game is likely not that interesting?

 

[tu_79]

C

I agree absolutely on higher initial city strength, scaling less by population. I don't want to be forced to be choose concrete civ to concrete playstyle. I like to roleplay, sometimes historically, like warmongering, wide Germany, or neutral, tall Japan or Sweden, which is not always optimal under current uniques. It is dull to play peaceful, cultural tradition as Brasil (does anyone knows even one painter or musician from there?), not as Rome, England, France, or America, which were cultural superpowers.
I think good decision making should always be most impactful and civ choice more a flavour.



I didn't mean to undermine your victory, I just think exploting AI defficencies with early city strength and ai pushing unit out of towns and generally three capitals under turn 100. It is like taking whole Eurasia, or Africa before medieval era. Little realism killer, and it would be possible if you gave some more time for ai to develop.
It is too much combined with warlike civ. If I do want to conquer all the world as Brasil if I was Brasilian I should be able too, not be locked to Zulu or Songhai.

Caetano Veloso and Roberto Carlos, not much more.

 

[crdvis16]

No, no, no. I have never too much trouble with roleplaying on deity till now, balance was pretty okay, and I don't think we should change that. Increase difficulty generally yes, but not to lock players to certain civs. Select goddamn Zulu you know nothing about and achieved nothing if you want more easy or much safer domination. Select Russia or Germany if you have want more holistic experience experience for a price of more challenge. But no to be locked out.

If you make the game truly difficult then the relatively small differences in balance between civs, policies, beliefs, playstyles, etc become more amplified. You probably can't have it both ways. You probably can't have both an extremely challenging difficulty while also making all playstyles/choices viable. It's likely just too hard to achieve that level of fine balance (though it's a good thing to strive for anyway).

I'm totally fine with dropping down to immortal (or lower if need be) if that's necessary to be able to maintain some roleplaying in my games at my skill level.

 

[JamesNinelives]

C

Caetano Veloso and Roberto Carlos, not much more.

I know they are mad about football and like to dance and listen to music a lot. Hmm. I know the character Lucio from overwatch. I know the Amazon Rainforest and the Amazon River has lots of cool plants and animals like, and also some uncontacted tribes. Culture/tourism seems appropriate. But then, it would be best to ask a Brazilian what they think is notable about their country if we really wanted to know.

Unfortunately we don't have a broad enough culture/tourism mechanism in-game to cover everything, but I think the jungle start bias (which grants tourism in the late-game) and the Carnavale UA are a decent way of representing these aspects of their uniqueness with what we have available.