New buildings!

Thibaulthc · Jul 18, 2012

what do you think about National Schools
it would provide 3 slots for :c5greatperson:

great engineer, artist, merchant and scientist
the maintenance cost woule be quite high (5-6 :c5gold:

)
it make sense as the more people go to specialized school, the more odds to educate a great one

the Beaux-Arts (3 great artist :c5greatperson:

slots)
Solvay (3 merchant :c5greatperson:

slots)
Polytechnic School (3 engineers :c5greatperson:

slots)
CNRS (3 scientists :c5greatperson:

slots)

only one school type per city, national wonders
no special requirements?

Arksa · Jul 19, 2012

Thibaulthc said:
what do you think about National Schools
it would provide 3 slots for great engineer, artist, merchant and scientist
the maintenance cost woule be quite high (5-6 )
it make sense as the more people go to specialized school, the more odds to educate a great one

the Beaux-Arts (3 great artist slots)
Solvay (3 merchant slots)
Polytechnic School (3 engineers slots)
CNRS (3 scientists slots)

only one school type per city, national wonders
no special requirements?

I'm just wondering if it is necessary and how it is balanced. Personally I don't see a need for those buildings. Too little effort to get specialist late game.

Thibaulthc · Jul 19, 2012

I'm not sure that it's too easy to get :c5greatperson:

. Depends on your playstyle and production efforts. Maybe we could also limit each Civ to one school. And it would be World Wonders. Could be only two specialist slots. With no production.

mitsho · Jul 19, 2012

I don't think railways are at all op, given their maintenance cost and worker time needed to construct.

Who said that it was overpowered?

I don't see the need for anymore faith builders, and "cemetery" seems pretty weak compared to temples, cathedrals, mosques and the like.

I think it's less about the need, but about giving the opportunity as tier-3 building. Civ5 does have a lot of "chain buildings", so why not "fill in the gaps"?

I don't see a need for a coastal fortress; that is covered already by existing defensive buildings, and melee ships become useless if the city is too good against them.

The Melee ships weakness lies more with naval combat per se and not city attacks. I think that problem should be fixed with that point. My proposition of a coastal fortress was specifically linked to one-tile or few-tile islands (i.e. where you get your coal from). Those are now quite easily taken. I do agree that a straight up strength increase makes not much sense though.

Thibaulthc · Jul 19, 2012

I maybe said that railroad are OP, maybe.
I was thinking to a railroad station building, allowing the city to fully benefit of the rr bonus.

I agree that we need another (tier III, ok) faith building. I don't understand why nobody follows me on the way of a faith multiplier, like Stock Exchange for :c5gold:

or Broadcast Towers for :c5culture:

...

mystikx21 · Jul 19, 2012

Thibaulthc said:
I maybe said that railroad are OP, maybe.
I was thinking to a railroad station building, allowing the city to fully benefit of the rr bonus.

I agree that we need another (tier III, ok) faith building. I don't understand why nobody follows me on the way of a faith multiplier, like Stock Exchange for or Broadcast Towers for ...

Faith is already fairly easy to get. With a modestly sized empire, 100+ per turn with the ability to get (effectively) GPs of choice on top of existing GP generation?. Multiplier or per pop would be very powerful. It may be useful sure (for a tall empire), but I'm not convinced that it should be a higher priority than growth or trade mechanisms. Faith multipliers could be added to policy changes instead to boost existing buildings. There's more than one way to get at this problem without adding a late-game building that feels forced.

As a further problem, I'm not sure anyone has proposed a way to title a new building that makes sense. Cemeteries doesn't appeal to me at least as a "faith-based" or faith generating concept and that's about all that's come up. "Honestly", I'd call it a "comic book store", as that's as close as modern societies get to a shared mythology and folklore in any way distinct from the existing concepts the game already has.

Railroads, as mentioned, have costs in producing the tiles and upkeep. I don't think that makes them OP at all. You have to pay in time and money for production. Trade-offs.

Those are now quite easily taken. I do agree that a straight up strength increase makes not much sense though.

If there's other changes to city defence such that defence buildings are more important relative to size and tech growth, it might make sense. I agree one tile isles or other small coastal cities are easy to take.

thadian · Jul 19, 2012

I join the call for airfields - Government Buildings and Palace Addition mods had some nice building ideas as well.

For infrastructure:
train station > Subway > monorail,

Factory > Manufacturing Plant (produce +2 copies of resource. coal, aluminum and if you prefer, steel (which is also a nice concept in the workshop, i use it and like it a lot.)

Stable each city capable > (national wonder) Pony Express
Stable > Ranch (-1 horse, +2 food)

Trail > Road > Railroad - Trail would be a 0 maintenance road that connects a trade route, and gives a +1 movement bonus. Upgradable to road (moved to engineering) and railroad.

Resource Planting: Remember in fall from heaven modmods, the Item units? I think it would be interesting to have each resource "producible". Once created, a worker can "pick up" resource and "plant" it. This would work similar to the herdsman unit in the Workshop, however instead of moving a resource, you would be building it in your city, and planting it.

This is what i can think of for now that would make positive impacts and add new dimensions of control and more importantly, the ability to shape and change the game as it goes on. A player with a bad-resource empire, instead of quitting, will build resources and or resource producing buildings. While roads become better with trails, and buildings that give specific promotions to unit types - such as air field and naval ports.

GenjiKhan · Jul 19, 2012

mystikx21 said:
Faith is already fairly easy to get. With a modestly sized empire, 100+ per turn with the ability to get (effectively) GPs of choice on top of existing GP generation?. Multiplier or per pop would be very powerful. It may be useful sure (for a tall empire), but I'm not convinced that it should be a higher priority than growth or trade mechanisms. Faith multipliers could be added to policy changes instead to boost existing buildings. There's more than one way to get at this problem without adding a late-game building that feels forced.

It can be a plain :c5faith:

bonus or a :c5faith:

bonus based on :c5citizen:

. I chose the second one because Tall empires gets too much behind from Wide empires on faith generation(specially if the Wide empire doesn't found a religion) .

mystikx21 said:
As a further problem, I'm not sure anyone has proposed a way to title a new building that makes sense. Cemeteries doesn't appeal to me at least as a "faith-based" or faith generating concept and that's about all that's come up. "Honestly", I'd call it a "comic book store", as that's as close as modern societies get to a shared mythology and folklore in any way distinct from the existing concepts the game already has.

One thing I could say is that if there were Cemeteries in the game,they wouldn't be a culture building . Plus,with such building,the idea of adding the "Père Lachaise Cemetery" as a world wonder would be much more accepted .

mystikx21 · Jul 19, 2012

GenjiKhan said:
It can be a plain bonus or a bonus based on . I chose the second one because Tall empires gets too much behind from Wide empires on faith generation(specially if the Wide empire doesn't found a religion) .

One thing I could say is that if there were Cemeteries in the game,they wouldn't be a culture building . Plus,with such building,the idea of adding the "Père Lachaise Cemetery" as a world wonder would be much more accepted .

I agree they wouldn't be a culture building. But my objection is that they, as a concept, don't add anything to the game that isn't already there (in shrines or temples, or monuments), and they really don't create "faith" in the real world sense either. I'm having trouble thinking of any new "building" that would generate faith and see more concepts like policy changes as the avenue of choice (a "reformation" or "great awakening" policy choice for example?) because that's more or less how religions evolved in historical terms rather than adding new infrastructure.

I can see a use of another faith generating wonder, or to have some of the existing wonders add mosques/cathedrals/pagodas to a city but adding a new building feels too forced like adding a "melee modern naval unit" (assuming destroyers go back to ranged) simply to fit the pattern rather than to model something real, historical or lacking in game play.

(Note: I do see a sort of logic in making something like a nationalistic icon generate faith points. It's the same sort of mental makeup being used with a different item in the "god" slot.... but a cemetery isn't the same as say the Washington Monument or Motherland Calls in that sense either).

GenjiKhan · Jul 19, 2012

mystikx21 said:
I agree they wouldn't be a culture building. But my objection is that they, as a concept, don't add anything to the game that isn't already there (in shrines or temples, or monuments), and they really don't create "faith" in the real world sense either. I'm having trouble thinking of any new "building" that would generate faith and see more concepts like policy changes as the avenue of choice (a "reformation" or "great awakening" policy choice for example?) because that's more or less how religions evolved in historical terms rather than adding new infrastructure.

It's not that easy to see Cemeteries generating faith,but it's not that easy to see Police Station or Constabulary increasing the chance to capture enemy spies either . Plus,the differences that Cemeteries have in comparison with Shrines and Temples are more than enough to justify a separation between them .

mystikx21 said:
I can see a use of another faith generating wonder, or to have some of the existing wonders add mosques/cathedrals/pagodas to a city but adding a new building feels too forced like adding a "melee modern naval unit" (assuming destroyers go back to ranged) simply to fit the pattern rather than to model something real, historical or lacking in game play.

The reasons for placing Destroyers as a "meele modern naval unit" are 3:

- To continue with the meele upgrade path(as already mentioned);
- To make the UA of Ottomans useful in Modern era and to allow them to capture enemy submarines,as Destroyers are the counter submarine unit;
- Someone mentioned on other thread(can't remember who) that the range of destroyer's weapon is limited enough to force them to get closer to their targets,although its ability to capture cities is the most controversial one;

Ahriman · Jul 19, 2012

but about giving the opportunity as tier-3 building. Civ5 does have a lot of "chain buildings", so why not "fill in the gaps"?

Because religion is designed to be a mechanic that weakens over time and plays little role in the late game.

The Melee ships weakness lies more with naval combat per se and not city attacks. I think that problem should be fixed with that point.

I don't see an easy fix; by definition, the only roles of melee naval units are anti-ship and anti-city.

My proposition of a coastal fortress was specifically linked to one-tile or few-tile islands

So use a navy to defend these. I don't think that outlying islands should be easy to defend.

On most other issues I agree with Mystikx21.

Thalassicus · Jul 19, 2012

I think defending with a navy is probably more fun that static shore defenses. There's four basic ways to balance islands:

Low value, weak defense.
Low value, strong defense.
High value, weak defense.
High value, strong defense.

I like C: desirable islands requiring a navy to hold. In Vem I gave islands many bonuses in the form of atolls, stone, coal, and 2 :c5food:

coast tiles. If we keep those bonuses in Gem and the cities are easies to take, everyone will try to settle islands and conquer other people's islands. I think that sounds like fun!

mystikx21 · Jul 19, 2012

GenjiKhan said:
It's not that easy to see Cemeteries generating faith,but it's not that easy to see Police Station or Constabulary increasing the chance to capture enemy spies either . Plus,the differences that Cemeteries have in comparison with Shrines and Temples are more than enough to justify a separation between them .

The reasons for placing Destroyers as a "meele modern naval unit" are 3:

- To continue with the meele upgrade path(as already mentioned);
- To make the UA of Ottomans useful in Modern era and to allow them to capture enemy submarines,as Destroyers are the counter submarine unit;
- Someone mentioned on other thread(can't remember who) that the range of destroyer's weapon is limited enough to force them to get closer to their targets,although its ability to capture cities is the most controversial one;

Actually it's fairly easy to see police and constabularies as spy catchers as maintaining a fair sense of law and order is one good way to make it difficult to run spy networks, and it provides a force of investigators to look for them. The game also offers no other way to do this besides a NW dependent on these buildings and a late game wonder (plus a policy choice in a tree most of us don't use). The power of espionage tech stealing requires some method to make espionage less likely and that's all you've got. Whereas it does offer faith-based structures and effects and that feels like there are already good enough bones to it to avoid adding another one just so there's a tier into the modern era (which is precisely when it is designed to stop mattering directly). A "tall"-centered policy choice or some modifications or additions to the existing beliefs or beliefs systems to me seems fine without stressing over more buildings entering into the faith system. I also concede that several wonders could add a faith-based building to the city it's built in in the manner of Djenne or Hagia.

I don't think anyone has explained that there is a meaningful difference between shrines/temples and cemeteries has been the point. Or at least I don't see that there is one that is needed in game. People used to be buried around churches and cathedrals for centuries. That's not a new modern innovation of the faithful to bury and honor their dead, nor does it much alter the human practices of faith to do it in a more central location simply because they live in a huge city instead of in a town or village. The important change or innovation was that they live in a huge city. Changes in faith over time are better reflected in social changes in my view (printing press or theological studies and reforms, etc) rather than by new infrastructure. By contrast, flying in airplanes for commercial purposes or living in very dense urban landscapes are innovative human concepts that aren't well reflected and new modern buildings could do a good job of this.

As far as the UA, maybe it shouldn't be as useful in the modern era? By then you could have a huge navy which you could upgrade and you still get a cheaper maintenance cost for new and existing ships. I'm not sure why we'd want to model capturing subs. Most people try to sink them in a war. The purpose of capturing any in WW2 was for code breaking, not for naval warfare in the form of privateering. It's also nearly impossible to "capture" them anyway. Doing enough damage "to capture" to something underwater usually means it is dead.

The Destroyer/Sub melee thread suggests against capturing a city with these. If so that also makes the "melee" tags somewhat useless since that's the principal advantage of these types of ships over others. And if so, then they should stay ranged as in pre-GK. The game provides Marine units to take over for the amphibs in the modern era as city busters. I agree that destroyers don't shoot very far in RL, but a) neither do submarines and I'm not sure the idea of them being melee ever took off when it was proposed either and b) the era's capital ships can shoot 3 spaces already or launch airplanes that go further still. It would be reasonable for DDs to still shoot at a range as a result. We could think of this as hit-run style torpedo attacks for example since these are usually fast or maneuverable ships.

Zaldron · Jul 19, 2012

Thibaulthc said:
I'm not sure that it's too easy to get . Depends on your playstyle and production efforts. Maybe we could also limit each Civ to one school. And it would be World Wonders. Could be only two specialist slots. With no production.

Recall that Thal added a lot of specialist slots to buildings like library and market, and even added the new T1 science building. I don't think we need to worry about more specialist slots buildings until we see what the building and wonder parts have in store for us.

3335d · Jul 19, 2012

Mass Transit - +25% production and gold in the city where it is built. +10% gold from trade routes.

Pretty large advantage to make it useful in its late-game setting.

Thibaulthc · Jul 19, 2012

Zaldron said:
Recall that Thal added a lot of specialist slots to buildings like library and market, and even added the new T1 science building.

did not play VEM for a year, sorry I forgot a lot of things

Thalassicus · Jul 19, 2012

@Thibaulthc
These are the main parts of that topic in vem/gem:

1 merchant on Market, National Treasury.
1 scientist on Library, National College.
1 engineer on Barracks, Heroic Epic.
1 artist on Temple (now Amphitheater), National Epic.
2 per specialist (was 3) to keep great person rate same as vanilla in the early game.
+100% from Garden (was 25%) to keep great person rate same as vanilla in late game.
Half the basic /pop moved to Mentors' Hall, a tier 1 science building, to make science depend more on development.

Thibaulthc · Jul 19, 2012

International Harbors:

maximum one per civilization
create a trade route with other civilizations which also have one
requires open borders
revenues based on total population in cities with a harbor.
boosts production in city when connected to another International Harbor

Spoiler :

International Airport:

maximum number in the word related to map size (like religions)
create trade routes with other civs with one and open borders
revenues based on total pop in connected cities
requires a lot of oil to work
requires aluminium to be build

Spoiler :

Thibaulthc · Jul 19, 2012

Thalassicus said:
In short:

2 per specialist (was 3) to balance greater specialist availability.

+100% from Garden (was 25%) to keep late game great person rate equal to vanilla/G&K.

+100%

and same requirement for the garden ? (need a river, no hills I think) ? doesn't make it essential and avoid any great people in city without garden? also too strong relative to National Epic and Leaning Tower? (both +25%)

Thalassicus · Jul 19, 2012

National Epic gives +50%, and gardens have no river requirement. I'm okay with gardens essential for great person generation.

New buildings!

Prince

Warlord

Prince

Deity

Prince

Deity

Kami of Awakened Dreamers

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Tyrant

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

King

CCtP Player

Prince

Bytes and Nibblers

Prince

Prince

Bytes and Nibblers

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