New buildings!

[Thibaulthc]

a trade bonus seems very interesting; I like the highway idea, that would double gold from traderoute in this city

 

[Babri]

Thibaulthc : U had nice ideas in that thread. It happened with me too when I posted some ideas GGs & there were very few replies.

 

[mitsho]

What if the Skyscraper gives 1 per Population? That way it helps Tall Cities way more than small ones. May use up one Iron (i.e. Steel) if you feel it's too powerful. The building would go with a World Wonder like the Oriental Pearl Tower, Taipei 101 or any other Skyscraper in a populous city. That one would give a free skyscraper and another 1 per city and preferably 2 free population and 2 . It'd essentially would allow you to build a super city. There was huge population growth in the modern era after all.

About coupling ressources, I like the idea behind it. A real economy has always been lacking from civ, for example food distribution to make cities not too dependent on the food potential of the land around it. BUT, such a system changes a lot and thus should probably be moved to a modmod or further stages. The biggest problem is that you now have way more things to build, so they build times for those building need to be scaled down. Or you need more production available, which will be there with your buildings. If I think of the recycling center, it should be possible to do a Steel Forge = 1 Iron + 1 Coal = 1 Steel. But how do you then keep track of those ressources? You need a new UI as with the old where strategic ressources are displayed in the top bar, you'd run out of place and oversight quite soon. If there's something done like that I would combine it with a Food distribution system, i.e: A wheat ressource has 3 wheats, each city that gets one of the ressources (trade route necessary), gets +3 , additionally, granaries grant +3 food per ressource. Or something like that.

Going back to GEM, even if the Suspension bridge replaces the Hydro Plant, I would like to keep that one as it's quite an iconic building and the graphics exist. The task is to find a gameplay effect that fits I see a place for the following types of buildings

• Later era faith generator: For those that want to keep up in religion and for those that want to take this route to Great Persons, i.e. the Cemetery
• Trade Route Enhancer: This whole line can start in the medieval or renaissance era and should reward trade routes, be it naval or overland (i.e. the Warehouse, Postal Office, Trainstations)
• Coastal Defense: Depends on AI capability but it's a classic one.*
• Information Era Tier 4/5 buildings: Another tier in the commerce, culture or another line of buildings, the Skyscraper, Subway System or even a Central Park would fit in there.
• Airports and Airfield, Hangars: This is just missing from Civ V...

* I would design it the opposite around from Reality. The coastal fortress would either create a Zone of Control of 2 tiles around the city or enhance the defense of the city based on the number of adjacent sea tiles to the city square. This would mean that a one tile island would benefit a lot from it. And those are now quite easy to take since you can bombard it from a lot of points and sneak into to capture the city even if a fleet is around you. On the other hand, cities in a bay wouldn't gain many defense points if there's only on tile from which to attack anyways... (Off topic, I would also love a late era world wonder that acts as a great wall but only for sea tiles.

 

[Dunkah]

* I would design it the opposite around from Reality. The coastal fortress would either create a Zone of Control of 2 tiles around the city or enhance the defense of the city based on the number of adjacent sea tiles to the city square. This would mean that a one tile island would benefit a lot from it. And those are now quite easy to take since you can bombard it from a lot of points and sneak into to capture the city even if a fleet is around you. On the other hand, cities in a bay wouldn't gain many defense points if there's only on tile from which to attack anyways... (Off topic, I would also love a late era world wonder that acts as a great wall but only for sea tiles.

I would love to see this happen. This is a great idea. I've been asking for a some kind of coastal defense for a long time. Love the way it could could increase depending on the number of coastal tiles...

Suggestion for Great Wonder... Atlantic Wall/ Fortress Europe... basically a great wall that protects you from onshore invasion. Possibly making all coastal tiles and all mainland tiles within 1 tile of the coast - 1 movement.

 

[bwoww78]

I would love to see this happen. This is a great idea. I've been asking for a some kind of coastal defense for a long time. Love the way it could could increase depending on the number of coastal tiles...

Suggestion for Great Wonder... Atlantic Wall/ Fortress Europe... basically a great wall that protects you from onshore invasion. Possibly making all coastal tiles and all mainland tiles within 1 tile of the coast - 1 movement.

if there is difficulty in modding a building to increase defense based on number of coastal tiles, perhaps there could simply be a new coastal fortress type building that increases the city's HP and/or attack power (the alternative side of the equation). one could require an ocean tile within the city radius.

just throwing out ideas in case there are (now infamous) "game core" issues

 

[GenjiKhan]

Since it seems that the idea of adding a later era faith building is popular,I'm going to suggest how it can be implemented:

Building:Cemetery
Cost:200
Pre-Requisite Technology: Architecture
Pre-Requisite Building: Temple
Maintance: 2 /per turn
Faith: 1 per 5 citizens

What do you guys think about it?

 

[Thalassicus]

I would say there should be building which enhance the rest of the luxuries. Luxuries like spices & gold are enhanced by granary & mint respectively.

Every luxury resource in Vem is improved by some building. I plan on doing the same in Gem, but that won't require adding new buildings, just modifying existing ones.

 

[mystikx21]

What if the Skyscraper gives 1 per Population? That way it helps Tall Cities way more than small ones. May use up one Iron (i.e. Steel) if you feel it's too powerful.

Skyscrapers are historically associated with growth. So I like this idea. Possibly .5 per person would be sufficient in power, though the iron requirement still makes a good deal of sense for a modern building to take up some utility for defunct resources. This would also provide some additional differential between cities, which I think of as much appreciated for gameplay/immersion purposes.

About coupling ressources, I like the idea behind it. A real economy has always been lacking from civ, for example food distribution to make cities not too dependent on the food potential of the land around it.... If there's something done like that I would combine it with a Food distribution system, i.e: A wheat ressource has 3 wheats, each city that gets one of the ressources (trade route necessary), gets +3 , additionally, granaries grant +3 food per ressource. Or something like that.

I'm not sure how well that can be implemented for trade of resources, but some way to use things like wheat or cows or fish as in civ4 as trade resources providing other benefits would be useful. Luxuries already provide a global benefit in the form of happiness. So there's a model for doing this in game. I generally agree that provisions of additional food through building some agricultural or trade building would be best here. Possibly similar structures for providing additional happiness. The trouble with this idea is that then we're talking about a whole subset of buildings rather than just adding two or three and its also a very substantial departure from vanilla GK. As a modmod it makes sense. But probably not for GEM purposes.

• Later era faith generator: For those that want to keep up in religion and for those that want to take this route to Great Persons, i.e. the Cemetery
• Trade Route Enhancer: This whole line can start in the medieval or renaissance era and should reward trade routes, be it naval or overland (i.e. the Warehouse, Postal Office, Trainstations)
• Coastal Defense: Depends on AI capability but it's a classic one.*
• Information Era Tier 4/5 buildings: Another tier in the commerce, culture or another line of buildings, the Skyscraper, Subway System or even a Central Park would fit in there.
• Airports and Airfield, Hangars: This is just missing from Civ V...

* I would design it the opposite around from Reality. The coastal fortress would either create a Zone of Control of 2 tiles around the city or enhance the defense of the city based on the number of adjacent sea tiles to the city square. This would mean that a one tile island would benefit a lot from it. And those are now quite easy to take since you can bombard it from a lot of points and sneak into to capture the city even if a fleet is around you. On the other hand, cities in a bay wouldn't gain many defense points if there's only on tile from which to attack anyways... (Off topic, I would also love a late era world wonder that acts as a great wall but only for sea tiles.

General thoughts here. I like the coastal fortress idea, though right now city defences are substantial. Combined with overall changes to how city strength is calculated (to make it more dependent on constructed city defences rather than tech/pop growth), I think that'd be a good idea for island cities to provide some balance and defence.

I'm not sure the game needs a late game faith producer per se. I'm not opposed to the concept, and can see a historical parallel in some societies (US) that retained large faith-based communities into the modern era in other cultural ways. I'm not really sure that a cemetery provides something that's lacking and is appropriately modern enough. Maybe something like televangelist types? An alternative here might be to allow civs to add modern/reformation religious benefits through social policies rather than to construct new concepts of buildings.

Trade route enhancers: good idea. Emphasis on coastal trade for most of the game. I would place airports in this realm. It is possible we could think of highways offering a minor city D bonus and airports offering a minor air defence bonus or air XP bonus to boost their later game appearance. Coastal fortresses could also be placed here as trade routes often involved secure and fortified ports to protect against piracy.

Late game buildings: subway or skyscraper is about as much as it gets here as public transportation and tall buildings are about all that is lacking for late game buildings (maybe something reflecting air conditioning but you could think of med labs as playing that role).

 

[Zaldron]

Since it seems that the idea of adding a later era faith building is popular,I'm going to suggest how it can be implemented:

Building:Cemetery
Cost:200
Pre-Requisite Technology: Architecture
Pre-Requisite Building: Temple
Maintance: 2 /per turn
Faith: 1 per 5 citizens

What do you guys think about it?

Cemetaries don't seem religion-specific: What about something like Sanctuary (it could even provide a modest unit healing benefit in that city (see Age of Wonders games for precedent).

Also I think 2 gold/turn is way too cheap. It would need to be more like 5 since it's more powerful than the religion-specific buildings we already have (cathedral, mosque).

 

[mitsho]

I'm not sure how well that can be implemented for trade of resources, but some way to use things like wheat or cows or fish as in civ4 as trade resources providing other benefits would be useful. Luxuries already provide a global benefit in the form of happiness. So there's a model for doing this in game. I generally agree that provisions of additional food through building some agricultural or trade building would be best here. Possibly similar structures for providing additional happiness. The trouble with this idea is that then we're talking about a whole subset of buildings rather than just adding two or three and its also a very substantial departure from vanilla GK. As a modmod it makes sense. But probably not for GEM purposes.

Well you actually snipped out the part in my quote where I explicitly state that such systems are not for GEM, but only for further mods. It was in response to a post that proposed the Iron+Coal = Steel equation. I do agree that any such system is for a complicated mod or rather Civ 6...

I'm not sure the game needs a late game faith producer per se. I'm not opposed to the concept, and can see a historical parallel in some societies (US) that retained large faith-based communities into the modern era in other cultural ways. I'm not really sure that a cemetery provides something that's lacking and is appropriately modern enough. Maybe something like televangelist types? An alternative here might be to allow civs to add modern/reformation religious benefits through social policies rather than to construct new concepts of buildings.

Cemetaries don't seem religion-specific: What about something like Sanctuary (it could even provide a modest unit healing benefit in that city (see Age of Wonders games for precedent).

Also I think 2 gold/turn is way too cheap. It would need to be more like 5 since it's more powerful than the religion-specific buildings we already have (cathedral, mosque).

Huge Public Cemeteries are however quite historical and were a major development in public works. Death also has always been quite a religious event (besides marriages, baptisms and other events) so I do see the connection to Faith. They are also something to be found all over the world. I'm not even sure what a Sanctuary is supposed to be (would need to look it up, you're right ) And the televangelists is more of a unit, what building would that be?

As for the costs and payoff, it would be a rather late era building. Costs rise exponentially for faith anyways, not sure if that's overpowered but I don't have much experience in G&K in the later ages yet...

 

[GenjiKhan]

Cemetaries don't seem religion-specific: What about something like Sanctuary (it could even provide a modest unit healing benefit in that city (see Age of Wonders games for precedent).

The kind of cemetery I'm suggesting is the kind it has been becoming common worldwide since the 18th and 19th century,whose main characteristic is the fact that it can be completely detached to any religious organization . For more details,see this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemeteries#Graveyards_replaced_by_cemeteries

Also I think 2 gold/turn is way too cheap. It would need to be more like 5 since it's more powerful than the religion-specific buildings we already have (cathedral, mosque).

It wouldn't be more powerful than religious buildings avaliable through beliefs,because its bonus would be only,while these buildings provide ,, and they don't have any maintance cost . And it'll only be avaliable at the end of Renaissance era,while these buildings can be avaliable much earlier .

 

[mystikx21]

@Mitsho, yeah sorry I snipped it. I had meant to say I agree that's an interesting concept but it sounds a bit too far off the mod goals here more or less as you did and wanted to discuss the concept myself. I snipped wrong when I responded. My fault.

I'm not sure that cemeteries generate faith in any way that is distinguished from "temples" or "shrines" is more my issue there. I think the idea that they're not really religion specific is a problem as well for generating "faith", as Zaldron pointed out. Rituals and rites of death didn't change substantially, and concepts of afterlife celebrated by such have taken different forms but only in their particular details and promises, not really in their function. To me it is a concept that seems adequately represented already in the game and doesn't represent a large shift in human being's faith adherence or function even if it is universally applicable. (I also second that sanctuaries don't add much here either). Printing presses had a substantially larger impact in my mind altering the effect and spread of faith than cemeteries ever did. Which is odd since the game effectively kills religion off by that time.

I haven't quite worked out what "televangelist" would be in a building sense ("megachurch", something like that? Someone actually religious would be helpful here in spelling out some more concepts for newer buildings) but my sense is that we may get more mileage out of faith as a later game function by altering the policies than by providing another building.

I can see a need for another faith building, but the mechanics there are already decent bones to build on. It would not be hard to make temples or shrines more powerful for instance with a policy or tech. Trade isn't well represented, city growth potentials in the later game aren't well represented, and city defence is all screwy. I can see a need for any of those building types to do something modestly powerful or useful over faith buildings as a priority for addition.

If we do go that route. Something with the general effect that's described doesn't seem too bad (it should cost more), but I don't think "cemetery" is the right title.

 

[Moriboe]

I like the suspension bridge! They are quite iconic structures. But I rather see a commercial function for them, as for all traffic infrastructure. Though production makes sense too, as it boosts commuting between city parts.

The sky scraper is another favourite, having a growth effect. It would be cool to introduce a "highest building in the world" competition, using some simple function based on tech level and city gold output. Thresholds for a new winner would prevent the event occuring too often. Certain wonders could compete too. The "prize" could be the commercial equivalent of the WLTKD. Winners could be named after real world sky scrapers. Code for this could even be simply altered from Moaf's Cultural Capitals mod. Hmm I might go for this myself in the future

Third or me would be the airport, as a civilian commercial building, though an aircraft XP boost makes sense. I'd have it require oil, mostly to prevent them popping up in each city. It would be cool to have them boost trade route gold as a function of the population serviced by the domestic flight network, with coverage decreasing in rings around each airport (city), making a balance between distance and population. Though simply gold per pop would do.

Runners up are the metro (just another commercial infrastructure building) and the assembly plant: I think this would be the more generic alternative to the automobile factory, which fits it in with the rising trend of using production lines. Another option is to rename the spaceship factory to assembly plant and have it give an additional bonus, so that you have a robotics production booster (as suggested somewhere in this topic). I had it increase airplane production.

Finally a note on the importance of iron works and steel throughout history: It's not only about using otherwise obsolete iron resources, it is just underrepresented ingame. I would like a foundry production booster to represent the application of ever better iron (steel) working techniques.

 

[Tarquelne]

It would be cool to introduce a "highest building in the world" competition, using some simple function based on tech level and city gold output.

Neat idea.

Skyscrapers: I like basic idea - especially as +/pop, or some other Tall city bonus... but skyscrapers give extra food seems so ass-backward. (Those rooftop gardens aren't as productive as their advocates sometimes claim.) OTOH, "skyscrapers" can be taken as shorthand for the various infrastructure investments that make really big cities work (Or at least work better.) and that the civ games have never covered. (It doesn't take a Great Merchant to realize some food *here* could be sold at a good profit over *there.*)

 

[mitsho]

The Food doesn't come from the rooftop gardens. It comes from the apartments and other room that is created that allows a lot of people to live in a confined space. As the food system of Civ is totally screwed up (no trade as you point out), it's a good shortcut to make cities more populated, and preferably not across the nation, but a few more so than others. Thus the ressource requirement, allowing you the ruler to divert the population growth as you wish, but not to everywhere. Also the per pop is essentially exponential...

As for the supermarket/mall, I could imagine a building that gives +1 on luxury ressources and +1 on bonus and strategic ressources, nice to have, not overpowered and kinda opposite to specialists...

EDIT: Also wasn't that discussed in the new wonders thread as well, with the "Tallest Building in the world" project giving you benefits until someone else builds it (and then you can build it again with rising costs). Not sure wether it's better as a project or an event/opportunity.

 

[Tarquelne]

EDIT: Also wasn't that discussed in the new wonders thread as well, with the "Tallest Building in the world" project giving you benefits until someone else builds it (and then you can build it again with rising costs).

Like the rooftop gardens comment, that was actually also a joke. Not that it'd be a terrible thing in the game, but the RL fascination with the "world's tallest building" has always struck me as silly.

Anyway: I think an event/contest is much more interesting. I'm often curious about just well the AI cities are doing, and a WTB wonder/project doesn't seem to address any particular shortcoming. Though, as a contest, I wonder how often the title would actually change hands.

Re Food and cities:
What about having a RR connection give food rather than production? (Or perhaps start also giving food with "Refrigeration.")

 

[mitsho]

Oh sorry, my bad. I'm quite bad at detecting jokes in written form on these forums

I guess how competitive the AI would be would depend on their personality, not? If we give those buildings high value, they should build it...

I'm not sure Food on RR-Connection is a good thing. I'm not sure it was possible beforehands, but now there's a belief that gives science for trade routes, so it might be moddable? However, that would help wide empires, not? Not sure those need *Food* bonuses. Now, if there's a possibility to give Food for Trade Connection * Population, meaning the effect scales with bigger cities, I could see that more.

 

[Tarquelne]

Oh sorry, my bad. I'm quite bad at detecting jokes in written form on these forums

No problem. I should be the one apologizing when I'm too unclear - I'm naturally
facetious. (I was dropped on my head as a child.)

I guess how competitive the AI would be would depend on their personality, not? If we give those buildings high value, they should build it...

For the single-wonder that'd work. As a contest, looking at pop, gold, etc. I'm concerned that cities don't catch-up to other cities often enough to make it worth while. Well, short of war. But having the "World Tallest Building" contest usually one because a city gets sacked or razed doesn't seem right.

However, that would help wide empires, not? Not sure those need *Food* bonuses.

I'm not sure it would, if it's a % bonus. But...

Now, if there's a possibility to give Food for Trade Connection * Population, meaning the effect scales with bigger cities, I could see that more.

... that sounds a lot better.


How about having a minimum city-pop for Skyscrapers? That'd lean them toward Tall empires and help curb their use by resource-rich Wide empires.

 

[Zaldron]

The kind of cemetery I'm suggesting is the kind it has been becoming common worldwide since the 18th and 19th century,whose main characteristic is the fact that it can be completely detached to any religious organization . For more details,see this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemeteries#Graveyards_replaced_by_cemeteries


It wouldn't be more powerful than religious buildings avaliable through beliefs,because its bonus would be only,while these buildings provide ,, and they don't have any maintance cost . And it'll only be avaliable at the end of Renaissance era,while these buildings can be avaliable much earlier .

I guess even after reading that I still don't see the connection between cemeteries and faith. And even if so, why would a place of burial provide significantly more faith than a religious shrine, temple, cathedral, etc?

I feel that faith is a far stronger resource per unit than happy or culture due to its scarcity so I would argue that even at pop 20 that building would be stronger than any of the other faith structures. At 30-35 people it would blow them away.

 

[Ahriman]

Thinking of a game-to-world idea, what modern infrastructure could consume iron (steel)?

I think iron is just too common in the modern era (thanks to modern mining techniques) for it to make sense as a strategic resource. I think it is appropriate that iron and horses are important strategic resources for a long time, but eventually they lose importance and are replaced by oil and aluminium. This is particularly important in a world where there is more variation in resource yields; you might have a weak early game because of a lack of resource access, but eventually your territory will turn out to be better.

If the goal is 1 building per player, then just make it a national wonder.

I like the idea of a Mass Transit system giving, say, +0.5 hammers per pop. But no strategic resource requirement is needed.

I don't think railways are at all op, given their maintenance cost and worker time needed to construct.

I don't see the need for anymore faith builders, and "cemetery" seems pretty weak compared to temples, cathedrals, mosques and the like.

I don't see a need for a coastal fortress; that is covered already by existing defensive buildings, and melee ships become useless if the city is too good against them.

Skyscraper is a possibility as a late-game growth booster.