New buildings!

[mystikx21]

+100% and same requirement for the garden ? (need a river, no hills I think) ? doesn't make it essential and avoid any great people in city without garden? also too strong relative to National Epic and Leaning Tower? (both +25%)

VEM also changed the requirement to any city, with no river/lake requirement. I think part of the logic also had to with changes to the freedom policy tree no longer being as specialist focused.

 

[Thalassicus]

Right, I focused freedom on "big cities" to give it broader appeal. Focusing on specialists makes it too obvious a choice: we automatically get or ignore it, without much thought. This is a topic for a different thread.

 

[GenjiKhan]

Whereas it does offer faith-based structures and effects and that feels like there are already good enough bones to it to avoid adding another one just so there's a tier into the modern era (which is precisely when it is designed to stop mattering directly).

The cemetery wouldn't be a building from Modern era,but rather,from late Renaissance era(as I suggest that the tech requirement for this building would be Architecture,mainly for gameplay reasons) . And from what I see,the current mechanic makes religion matter less on diplomacy,not on other things . It's worthy to create another mod that deals with the changes that religion(and faith) has been suffering through the last 500 years .

People used to be buried around churches and cathedrals for centuries. That's not a new modern innovation of the faithful to bury and honor their dead, nor does it much alter the human practices of faith to do it in a more central location simply because they live in a huge city instead of in a town or village. The important change or innovation was that they live in a huge city.

So what are you saying is that the kind of cemetery it has been adopted in the last 200 years is just a more updated version of a Shrine?

 

[Ahriman]

and from what I see,the current mechanic makes religion matter less on diplomacy,not on other things

The current mechanic makes religion weaker because of the escalating cost of everything, and because of the religious aspects that decline in value over time (you can't us Holy Warriors to buy late-game units, you can't keep building Mosques/Cathedrals/etc unless you keep building/conquering new cities, many of the other religion effects also don't scale well into the late game).

So what are you saying is that the kind of cemetery it has been adopted in the last 200 years is just a more updated version of a Shrine?

In the same way that a granary of the last 200 years is an updated version of a granary, that a modern playhouse is an updated version of an ampitheatre, that a modern library is an updated version of an old library, and as a modern water system is an updated version of an aqueduct, yes.

 

[Thibaulthc]

about
in G&K, markets, libraries and amphitheater also have a slot now (not in vanilla?)

Great People Maximum Growth:

G&K
(1lib+2univ+1lab)*3+2wonders= 14*(1+.25 garden +.25 national epic +.25 pisa +.25freedom)=28
GEM
(1lib+2univ+1lab+1national college)*2+2wonders= 12*(1+1 gard+.5 epic +.5? pisa +.25freedom)= 39

G&K
(1workshop+2factory+1windmill)*3+3wonders=15*2=30
GEM
(1workshop+2factory+1windmill+1barracks+1heroic)*2+3wonders=15*3.25=48,75

G&K
(1amphi+1opera+2museum)*3+4wonders=16*2=32
GEM
(1amphi+1opera+2museum+1epic)*2+4wonders=14*3.25=45,5

G&K
(1market+1bank+2stocks)*3+4wonders=16*2=32
GEM
(1market+1bank+2stocks+1treasury)*2+4wonders=14*3.25=45,5

 

[Thibaulthc]

I assumed you'd change the Leaning Tower of Pisa from +25% to +50%,
and for the wonders' , I counted the maximum divided by 4, seems reasonable
(maximums with wonders: 8, 16, 15, 12

 

[GenjiKhan]

In the same way that a granary of the last 200 years is an updated version of a granary, that a modern playhouse is an updated version of an ampitheatre, that a modern library is an updated version of an old library, and as a modern water system is an updated version of an aqueduct, yes.

I don't think this kind of logic would fit for Shrines/Cemeteries,because Shrines are a kind of building dedicated to something/someone extraordinary enough to deserve worshippers,while Cemeteries are built to house the remains of extraordinary and ordinary ones . Perhaps,this is reason why you don't see them as a faith generator building .

 

[mystikx21]

The cemetery wouldn't be a building from Modern era,but rather,from late Renaissance era(as I suggest that the tech requirement for this building would be Architecture,mainly for gameplay reasons) . And from what I see,the current mechanic makes religion matter less on diplomacy,not on other things . It's worthy to create another mod that deals with the changes that religion(and faith) has been suffering through the last 500 years .

So what are you saying is that the kind of cemetery it has been adopted in the last 200 years is just a more updated version of a Shrine?

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. It's not a new concept, just an industrial version of an old way of doing things that was necessitated by other societal changes (eg, the development of large urban centers for other reasons, trade and later industrialisation). An adaptation, not a revolution. We could very easily just increase the power of shrines or temples within the piety tree, say, to capture this effect rather than adding a new building.

I agree and am convinced that the dearth of impactful choices and changes for religion in the later game is not realistic. But I'm not convinced this is something that should be resolved with new "infrastructure" versus other improvements (wonders or policies, maybe even techs) that are both more meaningful choices for the player and potentially more realistic models of how religion has changed or advanced over that time. It did not really come up with newer and revolutionary rituals and buildings for example, just newer ways to spread or protect its core beliefs.

 

[mystikx21]

I don't think this kind of logic would fit for Shrines/Cemeteries,because Shrines are a kind of building dedicated to something/someone extraordinary enough to deserve worshippers,while Cemeteries are built to house the remains of extraordinary and ordinary ones . Perhaps,this is reason why you don't see them as a faith generator building .

Holy Sites are a kind of building dedicated to someone/thing extraordinary. Not shrines. Shrines are for ordinary forms of pre-monotheist worship, which includes rites and rituals surrounding death for ordinary people. That's why one generates 1 and the other 6

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, I'll put in my 2c worth at this point. I'd definitely like to see more National & World Wonders that represent "National Industries" (like Hollywood & Broadway from Civ4). If they also get to make use of otherwise obsolete Strategic Resources, then so much the better ;-). Effects could range from a unique Luxury (not unlike the ones currently available to Mercantile Civs) to bonus yields for certain tiles.

Whilst on the subject of buildings, I was wondering if there are plans to bring back specialist slots for early buildings (like the Watermill & Library)?

Aussie.

 

[mystikx21]

@Aussie, library gets a scientist slot in both GK and GEM by the look of it.

In GEM this is because it's no longer the tier 1 science building.

 

[Thibaulthc]

the specialist slots topic should be in another thread, sorry for that I came with that here
(and my post has some mistakes I think, Library in GK has no specialist slot as I thought, and I forgot the public school..)

to be discussed in another thread, sorry, I'll try not to do that anymore


Any comment on my International Airport and Harbour ?

 

[headcase]

If we keep those bonuses in Gem and the cities are easies to take, everyone will try to settle islands and conquer other people's islands. I think that sounds like fun!

With the improved navy features in G+K this sounds like the best option.

The current mechanic makes religion weaker because of the escalating cost of everything, and because of the religious aspects that decline in value over time (you can't us Holy Warriors to buy late-game units, you can't keep building Mosques/Cathedrals/etc unless you keep building/conquering new cities, many of the other religion effects also don't scale well into the late game).

Beliefs can hopefully be tweaked in a later phase.

 

[Stalker0]

So far the the building I have heard that I like is the skyscraper idea that gives a food bonus.

 

[bwoww78]

So far the the building I have heard that I like is the skyscraper idea that gives a food bonus.

+1 agreed

 

[thadian]

Call to Power mod has monopoly buildings that consume things like bananas, sheep, horses and copper. It might be worth looking at the files to determine if that fits your needs....

 

[headcase]

So far the the building I have heard that I like is the skyscraper idea that gives a food bonus.

That or vertical farm.

Thing with "skyscraper" is it gets me thinking of earlier buildings as well, "shelter", "tenement", "apartment", etc. If there was such a line of buildings, it probably would be apple focused, but maybe something like "size of bucket increases by x% less for each increase in population", or something else separate from the granary line (the most extreme design would be to cap population based on housing). With "vertical farm" I think of the granary line right away. My $.02

 

[Stalker0]

Thing with "skyscraper" is it gets me thinking of earlier buildings as well, "shelter", "tenement", "apartment", etc.

If we want to get granular, we could apply the same treatment to every building in the game.

The thing is, early game doesn't need any more apples, late game is where growth needs to stagnate.

Further, skyscrapers are a pretty big marvel of the industrial age, worthy of an actual building slot in the game.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think a skyscraper would be a fun way to consume iron in the late game. Growth is a good idea for a gameplay bonus, just like the Aqueduct. We could give them a similar effect! Skyscrapers would make a great tier 3 growth building:

1. Aqueduct
2. Hospital
3. Skyscraper

With the hydro plant renamed to suspension bridge, we can use steel to build skyscrapers and bridges in the modern era, highly realistic uses for iron. Renaming existing buildings lets us have our cake and eat it too. We get to add those ideas and still have 2 slots left for totally new buildings, giving us four possible new ideas so far:

Redesigned

• Hydro Plant -> Suspension Bridge (consumes iron instead of aluminum)
• Medical Lab -> Skyscraper (consumes iron)

New

1. Mentors' Hall
2. ???
3. ???

 

[Acratenn]

Thal, we were also talking in the threads beginning about adding an airfield/airport building as an improvement for air units or possibly a commercial/trade rout building (or both), and about warehouses as earlier, coastal commercial buildings requiring a harbor.

And again, about the suspension bridge, it seems to me that simply changing the hydro plant SR makes much more sense than changing the buildings name and icon (and probably description). Besides, in my opinion a hydro plant as a production building makes much more sense than a bridge.