New Civ suggestions

[a1Basco]

You are blinded by your patriotism to see what really is important (I'm guessing your Polish, am I correct?)

I'd like to see Poland, and I am 100% not polish.

No, I believe nationalism is stupid and irrational. I am just saying that there is plenty of room for Poland, and there are really no African civs left to add, because there are none.

Poland could easily represent the Slavic countries between Germany and Russia, and making Germany weaker isn't really an issue, because if you notice, France has almost no room to expand, and France(provided Germany doesn't take over), is always a powerhouse. There are always balance issues when adding or removing stuff, and that is why the UHVs are always changing.

Hell, I wouldn't even complain if there were independent states there where Poland is.

I am just strictly anti-Africa civ.

Also, like I said before, I am more for an Asian civ or two than for Poland. However, I defend Poland only because there is in fact room. Looking at the game map, or even any real life map could tell you that.

 

[McA123]

Sigh... This whole thread is just... stupid. PLEASE. STOP. MAKING. NEW. THREADS. ABOUT. THIS.

I don't even know why I'm bothering here; whenever I've posted in any of the other threads that were identical to this one, i was more or less ignored.
But anyways, here we go again.

Africa - No. Just no. This has nothing to do with there being no great civilizations there, but I just feel that if we throw in a civ there, then none of Africa will ever be colonized. Mali was a french colony. I have never once seen it be colonized, but that's ok, I'm not bothered by it for some reason. If a civ were put in somewheres in the South African, Mozambique, etc. area, then they would over expand and share all of Africa with Mali, Egypt (or Arabia) and in Warlords, Carthage. The Europeans would do no colonization because THEY WON'T INVADE. Do the Spanish invade the Aztecs and Incans? No. They won't invade African civs either.

Poland - I'm not even going to bother. There's no point.

Khmer - Sure, why not.

Canada - No. I'm Canadian and I am strongly opposed to a Canadian civ. I've already said why and I don't feel like saying it again.

Brazil - Well, a Portugal would be a better solution... but meh.

Korea - Yay! A civ sandwiched between 2 large civilizations on a peninsula that is about 6 squares big! That leaves room for 1 WHOLE CITY! Yippee!

I think that covers everything.. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm extremely tired of this crap.

 

[biggamer132]

Africa - No. Just no. This has nothing to do with there being no great civilizations there, but I just feel that if we throw in a civ there, then none of Africa will ever be colonized. Mali was a french colony. I have never once seen it be colonized, but that's ok, I'm not bothered by it for some reason. If a civ were put in somewheres in the South African, Mozambique, etc. area, then they would over expand and share all of Africa with Mali, Egypt (or Arabia) and in Warlords, Carthage. The Europeans would do no colonization because THEY WON'T INVADE. Do the Spanish invade the Aztecs and Incans? No. They won't invade African civs either.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Mali was an African civilization, Muslim or not.

 

[thenooblet22]

As I said including Poland should make France weaker-> Germany would be strongest nation until colonisation era.

Again... do you really want to weaken another European country so you can squeeze in yours, which would be equally weak? Europe is crowded enough. Poland would be eaten up in culture and would never pose as a military threat (I'm talking CivIV RoC terms).

Mali is in other part of continent than Sudan!

I hope you're joking or else you better start reading before you start mouthing off. Ghana, Mali, Songhai, along with others, were called the Sudanic states, located on the African west coast.

Mali Empire was really rich but still wasn't as important as Poland (Poland is older than Mali [11th century- Malinke Kingdom of Mali; 10th Poland adopts Christianity], Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was one of the most important civs in the World; Otto III wanted to create HRE with 4 parts: Galia, Germania, Roma, Sclavinia [he wanted Bolesław the Brave to conquer other Slavic people]; only Poland conquered Moscow [neither Napoleon nor Hitler could do that!]; Poland had stopped Turks invasion [Vienna - 12.IX.1683], and Soviet invasion [1920]; thanks to Polish Solidarity Soviet Union had collapsed... And there is many other history related arguments about Poland...

You can't compare apples and oranges. But if you really want to, both of these cultures technically helped their lands. The Malinese, succeeding Ghana, became a model for the Islamicized Sudanic states. Although the Malinese were economically agricultural, they grew rich from trading along the Sahel. Timbuktu, Jenne and other cities flourished as "port" cities where Mandinka juulas traded. They also contructed one of the wonders found in CivIV, the Sankore Univeristy. Originally a mosque, it hosted a library where scholars, jurists and Muslim theologians studied.
Now, I'm not trying to start a "history" war, but you can't just disclaim any of the Malinese achievements, just like I never did for Poland. It's just that they're not important enough to add which would cripple all the other surrounding countries. Who will the Malinese hurt?

(we represent Slavic people much better than Mali represents Sudan).

The slavs have been part of the German, Russian and Baltic cultures. What's the harm of letting them represent them?

In game terms: I show you many times that there is a place for Poland...

Sure, I can carve any country I want too on that map... at the expense of others I think the main problem is that your not thinking ahead with the culture pressures. It's a nightmare and a headache just thinking about it.

 

[McA123]

That is absolutely ridiculous. Mali was an African civilization, Muslim or not.

In the end it was a french colony... I was just pointing out that this will never happen in the game because the AI won't invade.

 

[Bob III]

When I think of Civilizations that have effected history in a big way, Poland does not come to mind at all. The only time I think about Poland being important, it was being taken over by Germany.

 

[LuKo]

Sure, I can carve any country I want too on that map... at the expense of others I think the main problem is that your not thinking ahead with the culture pressures. It's a nightmare and a headache just thinking about it.

If you can try to include Korea with it's historical borders and more than 4 cities... Poland have enough place (oh no, civs that haven't live there would lose this territory... It's horrible!) and have historical reasons to be in. I don't know why it shouldn't be included...

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

there are really no African civs left to add, because there are none.

I'm sorry...did you not read any of the last page? Or maybe you're confusing "Important" with "Still here". Do you agree with the removal of Rome from the mod? I'm not even going to bother restating myself with full sentences. Rich and varied culture. Tech advanced while your ancestors were still in caves. Vast area left empty in every game.

 

[thenooblet22]

If you can try to include Korea with it's historical borders and more than 4 cities... Poland have enough place (oh no, civs that haven't live there would lose this territory... It's horrible!) and have historical reasons to be in. I don't know why it shouldn't be included...

Your still not getting. Screw the historical importance. In RoC, Europe is crammed with enough countries as it is. Why not add Holland? Why not add Denmark? It's because all you would be doing is weakening all the nations, and that is horrible. And no, Korea was left out for this very reason as well. It would not add anything important to the game. To the game!

 

[LuKo]

Northern Europe is crowded- Central haven't any civilization and because it's empty civs like Germany Russia and Greece settle there. It's inaccurate as i.e. giving Germany colonies in USA because they're too weak... Most important in adding new features is to make mod better (not destroy balance, etc.) and second is historical accuracy. I think that adding Poland will be good for both of this rules.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

So, LuKo, you're saying we should leave most of a continent which teemed with life empty because Germany settles too far south? Call me insane if you will, but that seems to me to be a tad biased.
1. Adding African civs will make the gameplay considerably better in adding flavour, and definitely not destroying balance, as there is nothing there to change the balance of. 2. It's more accurate to have Germany settle Poland than have an empty Africa.

 

[LuKo]

African civilizations are represented by the Natives. Africa should be settled by them. And it's quite accurate because African civs weren't powerful. Central Europe is unrepresented. I think that being represented by the minor nation (Natives) is better than being unrepresented at all (Poland and the whole Central Europe).

 

[thenooblet22]

African civilizations are represented by the Natives. Africa should be settled by them. And it's quite accurate because African civs weren't powerful. Central Europe is unrepresented. I think that being represented by the minor nation (Natives) is better than being unrepresented at all (Poland and the whole Central Europe).

No, that does not represent them at all because they actually had living-breathing empires (i.e. the Sudanic states I briefed you about earlier in this thread), who participated with the known world. Stop posting sterotypical slander that the Africans were never powerful. They were quite tecnologically-defined for their age. Stop with the nonsense, we are not going to sacrafice our only Sub-Saharan nation for cramming in another European country.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

No, that does not represent them at all because they actually had living-breathing empires (i.e. the Sudanic states I briefed you about earlier in this thread), who participated with the known world. Stop posting sterotypical slander that the Africans were never powerful. They were quite tecnologically-defined for their age. Stop with the nonsense, we are not going to sacrafice our only Sub-Saharan nation for cramming in another European country.

Yep...That pretty much covers it.

 

[LuKo]

When African civs were powerful? During Ancient times. Then European civ (Rome) became most powerful. After Rome Arabia was most powerful but Franks were stronger than African civ. Eventually HRE and Turks were stronger than African civs. During colonial times African civs were much weaker than colonial empires. And now USA and other European and Asian countries are still much more powerful than African ones.

BTW: If I'm wrong please don't "curse" at me only give me argumentation that I'm wrong.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

I don't believe I've seen one example of anyone 'cursing' at you.

So you're saying that we shouldn't include Africa on the basis of a decline of power. By that logic we should take out Rome, Babylon, Persia and Turkey. Also your precious Poland would not get a look in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of RFC is to replay history, i.e. make it different. The African civs were clearly there. Maybe in the game you'll lead to their decline. Maybe you won't. That's up to you.

 

[LuKo]

Rome (I love it! ) was the most powerful civilization in the Ancient world. Babylon really wasn't too powerful but because of its culture and technologies was better than it's times (same as Greece [excluding Macedonia]- Greece wasn't powerful but it's culture and technology "made" Rome). Persia was Ancient superpower. Turks were extremely powerful nation (stopped in Battle of Vienna ]:-> ), I think the most powerful in some period of time. But African civs were strongest only when there wasn't any more civilizations. I really like African civs (especially Abyssinia) but I think that for now they are perfectly represented by Natives. Minor civilizations were sometimes powerful (i.e. Celts for long time were more powerful than Rome. Later Roman stol... borrowed their knowledge ) Slavic people aren't ever represented by minor nation. And the minor nation would slow down the mod just like major one- so I think that adding Poland is better than adding Slavic people minor nation (Celts are minor because France have to live in their homeland. Natives are minor because they are too extended and too diverse).

I don't like being called racist or nationalist. And it's sad that you (not you Talkie_toaster but group) are thinking that only Polish nationalist wants to have Poland included (look at A1Basco case).

 

[Spearthrower]

Then dont make absurd, ungrounded statements about entire continents full of civilised peoples!


Edit: Sorry LuKo.... my studies of history mostly revolve around Renaissance & Reformation and the Ancient world - these are the only 2 areas of history I will readily comment on. Your assessment of ancient civs seems more based off games you've played than any actual history. Further to that, your obsession with "superpowers" is just plain wierd. We can either remove 95% of the civs in the game because they are no longer "superpowers" or we can refer back to their relevent times and judge them. We can also use differing scopes of accomplishment other than "ass-kicking-ability" to judge the level of civilisation, even the game models this for crying out loud. War Mongers may well be remembered but that doesn't mean they are better if we are judging a level of civilisation.... which, at the end of the day, this game is named after.

I say put in a 1 city independent in Poland just to appease him and to give us something to utterly crush while thinking about him! No offense LuKo but your agenda *is* tainted by patriotism as you have conceded before. Patriotism and Nationalism are very very close friends..... when an overly Patriotic person starts making statements condemning an entire continent as unworthy of notice, the line falls much much farther into the nationalist camp.

You may not have meant it, but that is *definitely* how it is coming across.

 

[LuKo]

When I had said "about entire continents full of civilised peoples"?

 

[Spearthrower]

I think that most of African and native American civs are not really important in history.

This is what you said.


EDIT: Just as a recommendation, take a look at a book called Black Athena if you can LuKo, you might be very surprised.