1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

New DLC: Polynesia

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Willowmound, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. noncognosco

    noncognosco Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    229
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I think your emphasis on present-day may be misplaced. We are talking about a game that takes place through 5,000 years of history (or something). How much of an impact does ancient Egyptian civilization have on the present-day? Not really all that much but that doesn't stop us from recognizing that they were a great power in their day. How much geopolitical power does England, Spain or France have today? Not really all that much but they are recognized due to the extent of their power in their respective heydays.


    True (as far as we know). However, the Polynesians almost certainly did cross the Pacific and reach the shore of South America centuries before the Spanish or even the Vikings reached the new world. They had a lot farther to go to get there and they did it in freaking canoes.
     
  2. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,520
    Location:
    Grainvillage, Finland
    OR you could just not buy it... ;) I'm sure they'll put in "more deserving" civs in the future.

    :agree: Though it's still weird.
     
  3. Fabiano1979

    Fabiano1979 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    75
    [QUOTE=SickFak;
     
  4. Fabiano1979

    Fabiano1979 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    75
    Putting that way, you are right. Its not fair deciding whos "deserving" or not.

    The problem is that probably even the polynesian plp dont like the title "polynesia civ".

    But nvm.
     
  5. oddcat

    oddcat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Many existing Civs in the game are descended from Polynesian ones...nobody is doubting the European conquest of the Americas began with at least the Vikings, perhaps even the Celts (yes Columbus, Congrats on documenting it). There were people there before....however this not a history lesson. Give the Polynesians one hell of a Classical era advantage gain a strong foothold in the Americas before any latecoming Europeans arrive with anything more complex than local knowledge. At this stage of the debate - perhaps - (local medical knowledge and ill-health of Eurokids) could play against tech advantages. Now we'd have a game.
     
  6. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    OK, that's what I figured. I've been suggesting that for awhile, since it seems the most logical. I worried about possible imbalance, but I think it'll be overly strong on terra (actually, classical terra, i.e. Civ4 terra. Not sure if they have that anymore), a bit strong on archipelago, a bit weak on continents, and mostly useless on pangea. Very cool and represents them perfectly.

    The clovis controversy is really quite fascinating. I like to buy it, but I'm a sucker for crazy theories (I believed the China discovered the new world theory until I realized the complete and total lack of any credible evidence). Also, I believe that truly ancient societies were more advanced than we give them credit for. Homo floriensis (the so-called "Hobbit man") is evidence of very, very early sea travel.

    To connect this to the topic, Polynesians were interesting because, in some ways, they represent one thing far advanced of any society at the time (sophisticated, adventurous sea travel). On the other hand, they used this trait to their disadvantage because they abandoned things as they went west (agriculture, animal husbandry, etc). By the time they reached the edge of their expansion, they basically had to start from scratch and re-learn these things.
     
  7. Montov

    Montov King

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    707
    Does anyone have a complete list of units, traits and the like?
     
  8. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,213
    As someone with a mild Polynesia fetish, this is DLC I might actually buy (I don't buy most of it and have yet to purchase a new civ).

    Honestly, I don't think the right question here is whether the Polynesians were the most impactful civ they could have chosen. I think the right question is whether they'll provide a new and unique way to play Civ V. We'll see, but starting able to embark sounds promising; you'll be on all kinds of different islands way before everyone else. If their UB is a coastal production building, you'll end up playing them differently than any other civ.
     
  9. noncognosco

    noncognosco Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    229
    Location:
    North Carolina
    This is an interesting point. Since the Polynesians spent centuries constantly reaching new lands that had never before been visited by humans, they found a series of islands inhabited by animals that were not afraid of people. Although it is not strictly true that they abandoned agriculture (they grew sweet potatoes, for instance) they did live largely off hunting. They were able to do so because they found islands that were full of animals that would just walk up to them and let themselves be killed with a stick. There was no incentive for them to do much farming, so they didn't. Of course this didn't work out too well when they finally got to some islands that couldn't sustain the "kill-everything-that-moves" lifestyle. See: the tragic story of Easter Island. Something similar happened to the Maori in NZ.
     
  10. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,061
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    On Earth
    Thank'a'you, Sir.
    At least some truth is creeping around these Forums in rare occasions.
    Significant impact over the entire Pacific *Ocean* and everything that encases it (like coastal areas NSEW!) is - indeed - a Naval Empire that flourished parallel to Pyramids on both sides of the Atlantic.
     
  11. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,721
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Indeed I'm hoping for this as well.
     
  12. Reginleif

    Reginleif Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Messages:
    210
    Location:
    Hamilton, Canada
    This statement has so many things wrong with it:

    1. Your referance for what is historically important is Whiggish, and you dismiss
    civilizations that did not congregate to form a "Western civilization."

    2. Your claim that the civilizations did not contribute to contemporary states
    of the day is laughable. Modern Mexican art (Diago Riveria), food (tocos, etc,
    nationalism (The Mexica is what the Aztecs called themselves) etc, derive
    primarily from MesoAmerican cultures.

    3. Your last sentance reeks of ignorance. First, by this definition, the state
    that follows another is almost nessisarily superior because its achievments
    were recent, which we know is not true. Also it sounds like a popularity
    contest, because usually the most popular states in a certain national area,
    like Rome, are far worse than current states occupying the region (Italy). This
    is a sort of historical fetisization.

    Once again, I will repeat myself. The term "historical ignorance is a code word for "I am very, very, grossly ignorent."
     
  13. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    noncognosco, I agree. I was actually referring to later expansions. The earliest expansions did start with agriculture and then abandoned it where it wasn't needed (which proves the entire idea of the progress of civilization is a fallacy, but I digress). But later expansion did involve peoples who moved to islands that were less sustainable and then proceeded to basically destroy their lifestyle. The Easter islands are the perfect example, yes. The whole thing is fascinating anthropologically.

    BTW, say what you will about the book, but probably the biggest reason I support adding a Polynesian Civ was Guns, Germs, and Steel. That book really gave me a different perspective on the whole idea of what "Civilization" is, even when it comes to the game. I do think deserving civs likely to be included (Netherlands, Carthage, Mayans) will probably follow, along with other choices (Scandinavians, Celts), and there are a few civs that I think are deserving, which will likely never be included (Assyrians being the biggest example, it's too much of a digression to mention the others). But Polynesia is a refreshing change of pace.
     
  14. roberteriksson

    roberteriksson Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Messages:
    62
    Cool, got to love a civ that stands out from the other bland ones
     
  15. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    12,316
    I'm talking about their contributions... Egypt, and England+France for that matter have minimal power today, but contributions the Egyptians and English and French made were the basis for other developments in later cultures..

    Ie America is a major power today, and has made many achievements, but those achievements weren't from scratch. American achievements are based on acheivements previously.. ie Americans did not develop writing, the Sumerians did*

    *note: the Aztecs also had writing, but Aztec writing didn't contribute to any other significant developments in other civilizations before the Aztecs were wiped out.
    *Chinese writing may not have contributed to American writing... but it led to other things in China that Were contributed to America, ususally indirectly (gunpowder)

    The point is that most civilizations have achievements... but not all achievements are lasting contributions... we don't use cuneiform currently, but it was a vital step in the development of what we DO use currently. (not saying it had to be cuneiform, but there had to be some initial system and cuneiform is what it happened to be)

    If the Polynesian navigational techniques had been spread around the world before other peoples developed better techniques on their own, then they would be remembered as the civilization who brought seafaring to the world... (they didn't and they are not).

    Instead the Europeans "brought" seafaring "to the world" (even though China had better seafaring at that point.. I'm not sure if any Chinese naval technology leaked to Europe... although it probably did somewhat like gunpowder)

    Areas that were isolated from Europe (which ended up dominating the world and making the world a lot of what it was) didn't have the chance to either borrow from them or lend to them (like Asia and north Africa did). And they also didn't make significant speed bumps on the path... (like some civilizations in Asia and north Africa did)

    And as such the modern world sees primarily the contributions/effects that came through Europe. (civs like China may have contributed a lot more, and are making their own New contributions now, but even they were significantly reshaped by european effects... but less so than many others). All civs have Some effects left over (the cultural effects on Mexico from the Aztecs) assuming the civ didn't go extinct without other peoples knowing about it. But those effects are usually only local, and are often overshadowed by other effects.

    So most civs outside of Eurasia can be excluded for Significant historical impact (assuming one is talking about Historical impact on the present day... which is about the best way to tell if it is truly a lasting impact.. especially if it is a more ancient civilization). You can also exclude a lot of civs In eurasia... depending on how few/many civs you want.

    Once you get to several thousand civs then Texas and Luxemburg get included, and I think the Aztecs+Polynesians do easily beat Texas and Luxemburg in terms of historical impact.


    However, geographic representation and variety is also important for making a fun game. (since it is not a history simulator) which is why the Aztecs can be in before Spain.
     
  16. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,061
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    On Earth
    IIRC, they ran out of Wood to carry over the legendary sculpted faces... and starved trying to maintain a permanent presence on that one too.
     
  17. Gilgamesch

    Gilgamesch Ancient Alien

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,228
    Location:
    good old germany
    Ok i hope i can build Nam Madol as a wonder, when not i am shocked. So about adding an new civilisation, it seems like the give as a obolus, until:crazyeye: we accept the patch and further changes.
     
  18. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I think I called it. ;)

    I'm still not in any way, shape or form happy with Civilization 5 but this is a good addition by Firaxis. An interesting culture that accomplished so much with so little.

    What I really like is that they will hopefully have a completely different play style. Considering Civilization 5 is relatively straightforward and dull in my opinion, this will provide a new challenge at least for some people.
     
  19. noncognosco

    noncognosco Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    229
    Location:
    North Carolina
    This right here is exactly what is wrong with your argument. You are essentially saying that if a civilization is not European and did not have a significant impact on Europe, that it doesn't matter. There are about 5 billion people in the world who would disagree with you.
     
  20. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    13,579
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    How about the contribution of population that makes the pacific not barren and devoid of humans? Outriggers were a great invention. Granted, Europeans didn't learn about them until they developed better techniques, but it would have revolutionized sea travel centuries earlier. And we do use them in certain situations today, so it's not irrelevant.

    I think that's an unusually narrow view to take on which civs are deserving. It either cherry picks one contribution or it focuses on things like colonialism. What, for example did the English directly contribute that's not analogous to the Austronesian expansion? Don't say they spread their population and culture around the globe - that's what the Polynesians did 7,000 years earlier.
     

Share This Page