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New DLC: Polynesia

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Willowmound, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. oddcat

    oddcat Chieftain

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    Well said, the fact its causes this amount of debate leads me to looking forward to knocking Washington / Cartherine into second place with my well aimed Polynesian nuke (while drunk of course). That is what a game is all about.
     
  2. noncognosco

    noncognosco Warlord

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    Umm...I have never seen Washington be in first place in this game. The American civ is kind of lame, IMO. But I get your point.
     
  3. Gilgamesch

    Gilgamesch Ancient Alien

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    The Inca build monuments like puma punku before rome was build.
     
  4. CyberTyrant

    CyberTyrant Emperor

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    No Zulu or Vikings... meh...
     
  5. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    Your tacit assumption is that civs are important insofar as they shaped the modern West.

    That's one perspective on history, but by no means the only one. Polynesian culture remains the dominant cultural influence over an enormous portion of the earth's surface. It was important, and it was significant. It just wasn't important to or significant for Europe and America, so you discount it.
     
  6. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Maybe next we'll see the Mbuti Pygmies! :lol:
     
  7. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Not exactly accurate; they weren't Incas, and it wasn't in the BCs.
     
  8. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    So once again the patch is nothing more than a clever marketing device to sell DLC.
     
  9. noncognosco

    noncognosco Warlord

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    I am not sure where you get that conclusion. You are not required to download the DLC in order get the patch. They are being released at the same time to draw interest but that doesn't mean the patch is useless by itself.
     
  10. Gilgamesch

    Gilgamesch Ancient Alien

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    Ok the Tiwanaku culture built it(haha like lego, and well bc), but the incas used and modified them.
     
  11. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    "Would have" is the key term... separating achievements from contributions... Everyone learned about european navigation.. from the europeans that spread their culture and population around the Whole globe not a measly 1/3 of it (Pacific Ocean =/= Whole globe)

    And that is the point, every culture on earth is impacted by that colonialism. Areas where the Natives had made achievements were often surpassed by the Europeans (at least at some point... Asia was ahead for quite a while.. and then it caught up again after it fell behind)

    If the Aztecs had developed gunpowder the Chinese would still be the ones that introduced it to most of the world..through ->Arabia->Europe (unless the Aztecs had spread it to the rest of the Americas, which would have been significant, since that was pretty close to European tech at contact time.. or if they had used it to hold off the Colonizers for a significant amount of time.)

    You don't have to have "a Western civ" you have to have a civ that impacts other civs. The Aztec affected the Spanish far less than the reverse. And far less than the Aztecs and Mayans both impacted each other. But their impacts were overwhelmed (not completely eliminated but overwhelmed) by the impacts of the Spanish.

    Various European Civs and China aren't the same, the flow in 1800-1950 was probably more from Europe than China, but there wasn't the overwheming that there was in other cases.


    It Should be included.. but for geographic/interesing reasons rather than "impact"
     
  12. jdblue

    jdblue Chieftain

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    To those that claim Polynesia is unimportant or not important enough for this "early" inclusion in Civ V I offer a few thoughts:

    1. No Oceanic culture has ever been included as a regular, non-scenario civilization in the entire history of this game. This despite the fact that New Guinea alone contained more spoken languages than all of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East at the time of initial European contact.
    2. Polynesian civilizations have achieved some of the highest population densities of their times, despite (in many cases) extremely limited arable land area and irregular supplies of fresh water.
    3. The Polynesian mother culture was the first civilization to have been proven to have crossed open seas with no land in sight. And they did it in canoes.
    4. According to Tongan legend and some (disputed) archaeological evidence, the Tongans once held a maritime tributary empire stretching from Samoa to Niue. The Hawai'ians also held an extensive multi-pelagic kingdom that later became the US state of Hawai'i.

    I, for one, am very excited to see this admission into the game for several reasons. Western culture, though globally dominant for the last few centuries, has been a blip in terms of the sum total of human civilization. It remains to be seen whether "new" nations like America and Germany will outlast the thousand-year histories of many Polynesian nations. Polynesia's availability as a playable CiV also serves as further representation of advanced aboriginal cultures whose people and practices have survived Westernization and still exist in some form today.

    On top of that, it looks to be another fun naval civ, which is great news for aspiring maritime imperialists like myself.
     
  13. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Yes, there were about 800,000 of them scattered over many islands in the Pacific. As a historian you can never discount a group or groups of people because you think they are inferior. These people had there part to play in the world. They also had breadfruit, which they should add to the game. Breadfruit as we know was a staple source of food that could be transplanted in the like climate of the West Indies for the purpose of feeding slaves. This of course was a good idea at the time but a failure because the slaves refused to eat breadfruit. So the British Empire with their infinite power, their huge fleet, and their long arm, actually found a purpose for something the Polynesians had. This insignificant conglomeration of tribes certainly was not useless. Besides what is interesting about exploration, of course, the wonders you meet along the way. New and interesting people, wildlife, agriculture (etc.), and the possibilities of how you can use these things to benefit you own civilization.

    So, I agree that these people were important. "Although they lived in a "Stone Age," the Polynesians learned to make good use of all the things at hand and showed skill in the making of houses and clothing and in the cultivation of fields; in their art, government, and religious ideas they reached a high stage of development."
     
  14. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Hold on...
    Mayan Codex?
    Yep, colonization of the New World had impacts.
    Even religious beliefs were somehow protected from scientific knowledge beyond what the Europeans brought across an Ocean.
    Flight, anyone?
    There is evidence, hidden.
     
  15. zarakand

    zarakand Prince

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    Interesting to see so much debate about whether they should be included as a Civ. I find their inclusion to be awesome! The first game post patch that I'll play is going to be with them, I think.
     
  16. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Retired Moderator Supporter

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    ...i'm confused...if there was a concept for the "post production" of Civ5, then it's now probably gone.

    What would have been logical as DLC concept?

    Concept 1:
    - Release every Civ, which most people would consider "important", as DLC, like the Incas and Spain, or which most other people would guess in the first place as candidates, Vikings, Mayas, Zulus, Portugal, Korea, etc.
    Make afterwards an Addon/bundle out of this stuff.

    Concept 2:
    - Relase every Civ, which are for most people not that important, but which many people want, probably some "underdogs" also, like Polynesia, Poland, Australia, Brazil, Southern Africa, Austria/Hungary, etc., and make a separate addon with the Civs mentioned in concept 1.


    So...what now? Did the dog eat the design document, did someone burn it or did anyone use it as toilet paper? What happened? Is there a concept? Or are they rolling dices?
     
  17. The Mad Russian

    The Mad Russian Armchair Dictator

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    it's a crap shoot J, pot luck, grab bag, mystery meat etc. LOL
     
  18. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    SQUEEEE!!!

    This looks awesome! +10% Combat Strength for friendly units within 2 tiles of a Moai
     
  19. snarzberry

    snarzberry Emperor

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    Well I think that everyone can agree that Civ games have a very loose and broadly applied definition of what constitutes a 'civilization'.

    Polynesia outclasses a lot of other Civs from the game in many areas that we would look at to see if they merit inclusion. Such as longevity (thousands of years as an identifiable culture), technological achievement (vast early voyaging and astronomy), population (just the sheer number of people who have ever lived that would identify themselves as 'polynesian' as we define it would hugely outweigh many other Civs that have been included such as Carthage and Zulu).

    So in light of these facts it's totally appropriate that Polynesia be included as a civ. I'm looking forward to smashing those wimpy spearmen with my taiaha!
     
  20. Pouakai

    Pouakai It belongs in a museum. Moderator

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    Does this mean new techs, or poor wording?
     

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