[NFP] New Frontier Pass, or Reincarnation of Old Mechanics

[Lily_Lancer]

During the development of the game, some game mechanics are proved too overpowered and are removed.

However, instead of introducing new abilities, the developers are now more focus on bringing removed abilities back. They bring back science/culture from pillage in Norway, they bring back GG stacking in Gran Columbia. Now they're bringing back invincible old rams by Byzantium.

Can they be somehow more innovative? It is called "New Frontier Pass", not "Reincarnation of Old Removed Mechanics". Bringing back those old removed mechanics just makes the game more imbalanced and less interesting.

I understand that balance may be very difficult for developers, as they really seem not good at gameplays. But don't reincarnate the proved imbalance ones, please! You already know they're too imbalanced and that's the reason you remove them, why bring them back?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

It's totally different for once Civ to have something than for every Civ to have it.

 

[GrumboMumbo]

I'm done bashing on the game, but I do agree. I also think Apocalypse/Tech shuffle and Dramatic Ages modes come from the 'previously discarded ideas' bucket. (I thought that's what the thread title was going to be about)

It's disappointing, but civ6 remains my current favourite Grand Strategy Game. But it also doesn't really have any competition either...

 

[Haig]

I disagree

Secret societies is a new cool feature, pick a factiom that gives a new growing bonus every other era and an unique unit or building.

Shuffled techs hasnt been done before to my knowledge.

Dramatic Ages brings the rebellions that have been wished before in countless posts

I think you people are just trying too hard to get disappointed about everything, its just a game.

 

[Tiger Genocide]

I'm done bashing on the game, but I do agree. I also think Apocalypse/Tech shuffle and Dramatic Ages modes come from the 'previously discarded ideas' bucket. (I thought that's what the thread title was going to be about)

It's disappointing, but civ6 remains my current favourite Grand Strategy Game. But it also doesn't really have any competition either...

I got to OpenDev Test play Humankind some time ago. That game will definitely fill the gaps, possibly much more than that. It's not easy either, which could turn off some casuals. Maybe not, I am sure there will be difficulty settings. It was refreshing to have to stop and think out some of the battles. So much so, I spent 10 mins thinking on a single turn. I have not had such pressure put on me unless I played Civ5 Vox Populi on a hard difficulty. Heck playing against Shaka in Civ5 on deity in a late game war sometimes made me pause long for a hard thinking session. Those Carpets of Doom were insane sometimes.

Anyway, I gotta agree with Lilly on this one as well. It would be better to avoid taking out something that was unbalanced, then put it back in later. It makes the power creep worse and tends to have flaws/exploits in them from a design standpoint. I honestly do not know if balancing in bits until the last patch makes more sense or a whole re-balance patch at the very end would be better. Either way they need to make sure they do not add more exploits unintentionally.

 

[acluewithout]

Recycling mechanics

I really don’t understand your complaint @Lily_Lancer. Isn’t it fine for FXS to recycle mechanics? A lot of mechanics end up working much better a second time round, often when made a bit more restricted or tied to a particular Civ. I particularly like how stacking IZ bonuses and Harbour / CH trade route stacking works now.

Byzantium getting Horse Rams seems fine to me. Yeah, it’s powerful. But it’s now only one Civ that gets the ability, the rest of the Civ’s abilities are balanced around it, and it’s restricted because you have to spread your Religion to the City first. I guess the last restriction won’t matter much in SP because the AI is cheese, but surely in MP human players will fight back against Byzantium religion?

I really hope the Goddess if the Harvest mechanics makes a return as a Civ ability. As a pantheon it was broken, but it was such a distinctive way to play the game that I’d hate to lose the mechanic entirely.

I also hope the old Work Ethic mechanic comes back in some form. Maybe as a Policy Card or something.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Byzantium getting Horse Rams seems fine to me. Yeah, it’s powerful. But it’s now only one Civ that gets the ability,.

This is actually more imbalanced than having everyone available to the mechanism. Previously everyone is king but they're equal. Now only one is the king and others just kneel.

Gran Columbia is already a failure of bringing back old general stacking mechanisms. They're not balanced, are they? The fact is that the developers have no idea about balance and my only wish for them is not to bring back proved imbalance things.

 

[acluewithout]

This is actually more imbalanced than having everyone available to the mechanism. Previously everyone is king but they're equal. Now only one is the king and others just kneel.

Gran Columbia is already a failure of bringing back old general stacking mechanisms. They're not balanced, are they? The fact is that the developers have no idea about balance and my only wish for them is not to bring back proved imbalance things.

SP and MP balance is very different.

For SP, you can have since with different power levels. What matters is having a variety of play styles. You don’t want blank Civs where you can’t use their bonuses; and you don’t want OP Civs where it’s so easy or so one dimensional that the game is a yawn. Beyond that, it’s okay to have different power levels. Some people like weaker or more niche Civs so they can increase the challenge. Some people like more powerful Civs so they can just build or war or can play at higher difficulties.

MP is a different beast, and I agree Civs need to be more balanced for that. But there are Mods that balance Civs for MP. And I think those community mods will inevitably be more balanced than anything FXS can do.

 

[lotrmith]

The issue is less of old mechanics and more of power creep.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

SP and MP balance is very different.

For SP, you can have since with different power levels. What matters is having a variety of play styles. You don’t want blank Civs where you can’t use their bonuses; and you don’t want OP Civs where it’s so easy or so one dimensional that the game is a yawn. Beyond that, it’s okay to have different power levels. Some people like weaker or more niche Civs so they can increase the challenge. Some people like more powerful Civs so they can just build or war or can play at higher difficulties.

MP is a different beast, and I agree Civs need to be more balanced for that. But there are Mods that balance Civs for MP. And I think those community mods will inevitably be more balanced than anything FXS can do.

In MP we focus on balance. Clearly those removed old mechanics like General Stacking or Gran Columbia is imbalanced.

In SP we focus more on experiencing interesting new mechanics, not experiencing the already-experienced old removed mechanics. Clearly, bringing back old removed mechanics also doesn't fulfill the need of SP players.

Bringing back old removed mechanics are not good for both MP and SP players, only good to reduce work for designers so that they can enjoy more holidays.

 

[KayAU]

Well, Secret Societies and Tech Shuffle are new and interesting, at least. I do admit that for every patch, the part I'm most interested in is the balance changes or refinement of existing mechanics, as that is something I believe the game needs more than extra content. Note that I'm not talking about balance in the sense that every civ should be equally powerful, I'm thinking more about changing the meta and making different playstyles and choices more viable.

Examples of things I would have loved to see:

• More significant district synergies/better district yields in bigger cities
• Buildings or cards to get more from specialists
• Tech and civic boosts should give a percentage boost to research rather than a lump sum (removes the dumb meta of having to remember swapping out techs before finishing to avoid wasting research)
• World Congress redesign, better resolutions, should be able to make proposals
• Reworked civic cards...currently there are so many of them, and yet I only ever use a few. Some I swap in for a single turn.
• Remove the recruit partisans spy mission

 

[Pfeffersack]

I don't care if mechanics are recycled or brand new, as long as the add to gameplay and are fitting in terms of balance.

 

[anonxanemone]

In a way, unique bonuses are inherently "unbalanced" and is kind of the point of games with asymmetric play. I don't see why it's taboo idea to repurpose old mechanics as unique abilities.

 

[acluewithout]

Mostly the various mechanics that have been brought back as other abilities etc. are actually better the second (or third or fourth) time around.

I mean, I miss the old Pax B, but it works much better as Zulu’s ability. I always liked Harbour and Commercial Hub TR stacking. It’s much more satisfying as part of Owls of Minerva ability.

As I’ve said elsewhere, I really hope the Old Work Ethic Mechanic comes back. It was wasted as a Religious Tenet, but could work really well tied to a building or policy card. I also really hope we see Goddess of the Harvest return at some point, because it was such an interesting way to play (although totally broken as a Pantheon),

 

[Onii-chan]

Just because something didn’t quite work originally doesn’t mean the general idea was terrible. Things change in time and a lot of things have happened since the early days of civ 6. I don’t really think it’s a problem recycling old ideas if you put them into a new context and try to make it better the second time around

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Just because something didn’t quite work originally doesn’t mean the general idea was terrible. Things change in time and a lot of things have happened since the early days of civ 6. I don’t really think it’s a problem recycling old ideas if you put them into a new context and try to make it better the second time around

Is it better? Is Gran Columbia balanced with GG stacking? Is Byzantium not overpowered? Do you think the developers do know how to make them "better"?

 

[lotrmith]

Is it better? Is Gran Columbia balanced with GG stacking? Is Byzantium not overpowered? Do you think the developers do know how to make them "better"?

Gg stacking for Columbia is fine on its own. It's the +1 movement and promotions not ending turn combined with gg stacking via free, unique ggs that make them imbalanced.

 

[Onii-chan]

Is it better? Is Gran Columbia balanced with GG stacking? Is Byzantium not overpowered? Do you think the developers do know how to make them "better"?

I think Byzantium is a super interesting civ by design with lots of cool synergies between its abilities at the very least. Is it OP? Probably, but if it is powerful in a way which is fun to play then I'm not gonna complain about it. Gran Colombia on the other hand, yeah that was the really bland and one-dimensional kind of OP and I didn't like them very much

I mean balance is nice and all but I don't think it's absolutely essential for single player at least. It's not like it's difficult to beat the AI regardless and most people just want to have a good time playing to their respective civ's particular niche playstyle and enjoy themselves while relaxing. If some civs happen to be a bit stronger then others in the process then it's not the end of the world. That said I do think ideally, the devs should go back and tweak many of the older civs. If they were given more/stronger abilities that would help with the balance issue but also give them bigger opportunities to be even more unique relative to each other, which can only be a good thing

Of course if we're talking about multiplayer then it's a totally different ball game since that's actually a competitive environment whereas single player isn't. But Civ has always been primarily a single player game so I don't think it'd be right if the devs designed the civs based on multiplayer game balance primarily. It's not like Starcraft or another esport which is primarily driven by its competitive multiplayer scene. I think they should always first and foremost strive to come up with faction abilities that are thematically appropriate for the civ and give them a unique playstyle in some aspect. I'm pretty sure there are mods that the multiplayer community use to balance civs as they deem appropriate anyway so once that's applied on top of it then everyone should be happy. If you want to play civ casually and thematically single player then the unmodded game would allow that, and the community itself will decide what balance tweaks would be needed for them to be suitable for a competitive multiplayer environment