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No Tech Brokering actually hurts the AI.

@Tripped,
How many AI did you start the game with? Collecting more info, also what Difficulty level?

My Research rates are based on Avg to slightly above avg players not for Deity+ Players. If I make the research rates more restrictive for Deity I end up squeezing out the regular player.

I suppose I should look into the Difficulty level xml files and see how to increase the research penalty for Deity and above.

But truth be told we as Modders can not make the game tough enough for those level players such as you and still keep it playable for non Deity level players or the AI.

I'll still see about making it harder on Deity though.

@SO,
Yes, Thanks for the info. It is all appreciated and used for comparisons.

JosEPh
 
Question: Tech Diffusion On or Off?

If TD is On then the research rates are still too fast and so the dates are not corresponding exactly to the Era. I'm seeing this in some of my current test games.

IMHO TD is Too Strong in it's current settings. Then add in the vast number of World and National Wonders and keeping the research rate at the right level is difficult.

No Tech Brokering actually hurts the AI.
My impression is that TD doesn't really change much as it can only help the players that are behind. Once you are the tech leader it cannot help you unless you beeline and leave some older techs behind for a while only to come back to get them later once other nations have developed those techs, giving you the benefit of TD.

What this means is that the tech leader, representing the most advanced nation and thus where the dating should be attached to, is not commonly benefiting from Tech Diffusion and thus TD does nothing to influence how fast technology is achieved globally and thus it does little to nothing to influence the dates of achievement.

Tech trading, on the other hand, allows for a group of trading nations to enter into, in effect, a trade cooperative, where they can, as long as they don't research the same things, effectively double or triple their rates of tech progress. Which is exactly why I never allow it in my games. It has always thrown off the dating, even back in Vanilla.

I suppose it could be said to hurt the AI, but a clever player is going to use it against the AI more than the AI is going to benefit from it imo. The reason for this is the strategic oversight of massive complexity capacity that a player has over the AI. The player knows they just have to make sure to get every tech that other AI players have developed that they don't have and then refuse to trade off techs they have that no other AI players do. The AI is willing to trade brand new discoveries because it thinks gold is as valuable as a tech edge. It is not.

It would be possible to improve the AI for tech trading perhaps, but the best improvement is to not allow it because a true improvement would be that no AI would consider it beneficial to allow another player access to their discoveries unless a very special long term alliance strategy was formed (or it was used as a deceptive ass-kissing diplomatic maneuver.)

Ultimately, I doubt the AI could ever be made to see the big picture well enough to properly guage when and at what value to trade techs without it being MORE exploitable by the player. And it makes getting the dates to align nearly impossible.

I am invariably far, far ahead of the date in terms of technology as compared to real history by the Medieval era, if not earlier, regardless of TD. I prefer to play with it off though, as it's rather broken in its current form. That said, I'm also invariably the tech leader and significantly more powerful than all AIs by that time too. My last game is/was well into Transhuman by 500AD (Snail speed, Large map, TD off, No Tech Brokering). The two strongest un-meddled-with AIs are both in the early Industrial, each with their starting continents fully controlled.

A lot has to do with the whole "bigger is better" situation, especially in that expansion gives increased production in all categories, with no significant penalties once things get rolling.
Yeah, that bigger is better issue makes the steamroll issue very difficult to contain.
 
Yeah, that bigger is better issue makes the steamroll issue very difficult to contain.

Proposed solution: increase money upkeep cost from number of cities and distance to capital. That'll force the player to build wealth instead of build science. It'll also make civics more of a relevant choice. I assume that this upkeep cost depends on difficulty level, so if you keep Noble the same and increase it incrementally for higher difficulty levels, it can be implemented without having to alter the AI.
 
Proposed solution: increase money upkeep cost from number of cities and distance to capital. That'll force the player to build wealth instead of build science. It'll also make civics more of a relevant choice. I assume that this upkeep cost depends on difficulty level, so if you keep Noble the same and increase it incrementally for higher difficulty levels, it can be implemented without having to alter the AI.

Yeah, that's how its supposed to work. I'm not the civic designer here but I completely agree.

I'd also like to eventually impose increasing research penalties based on city counts, as an option at least, giving smaller civs a fighting chance.
 
Perhaps there should be a diplomatic bonus between smaller civs. This shouldn't mean they commit suicide by attacking a large civ, it's more along the line of "You won't be altering the deal, so I trust you."
 
@Tripped,
How many AI did you start the game with? Collecting more info, also what Difficulty level?
12 AIs on a Large PerfectMongoose310 map, Immortal difficulty but with Increasing Difficulty on. Basically, I dislike the bonus starting settler at Deity. Next time I start a game I'm planning on fiddling with the difficulty/handicap settings manually in an attempt to come up with something that feels more satisfying.

My major issue with Tech Diffusion is the way it's dependent on contact. Realistically, it makes sense, but in gameplay/balance terms, it makes an isolated start even less viable in C2C than it already is. Often, I find that the middle of the pack in terms of tech can get a massive boost in research from TD because they happen to have several neighbors, but a more isolated civ can't due to lack of contact. It tends to benefit second place far more than it does last place. Mind, this issue may be lessened with the change to Coast/Sea/Ocean instead of Coast/Ocean, I haven't played with TD on in ages.

I don't think No Tech Brokering actually has all that much of an effect on my games, as I'm usually well into the tech lead by Writing anyway. Would probably make a much bigger difference if Tech Trading is moved to an earlier tech as has been suggested elsewhere.

I think some form of empire-wide research penalty to larger civs is warranted, though I'm not sure what the best way to implement it would be.
 
My impression is that TD doesn't really change much as it can only help the players that are behind. Once you are the tech leader it cannot help you unless you beeline and leave some older techs behind for a while only to come back to get them later once other nations have developed those techs, giving you the benefit of TD.

TD changes the advancement of the techs researched and revealed globally. And No one said that TD helps the Tech leader. The Tech leader sets the Pace of research as long as the AI or player has neighbors.


What this means is that the tech leader, representing the most advanced nation and thus where the dating should be attached to, is not commonly benefiting from Tech Diffusion and thus TD does nothing to influence how fast technology is achieved globally and thus it does little to nothing to influence the dates of achievement.
Only for the leader in tech. It Does influence and speed up the Non tech leaders so the Whole global society is sped up, except for the isolated and rare AI/player, in terms of research achieved vs "date". Your analysis imhpo is backwards here.

Tech trading, on the other hand, allows for a group of trading nations to enter into, in effect, a trade cooperative, where they can, as long as they don't research the same things, effectively double or triple their rates of tech progress. Which is exactly why I never allow it in my games. It has always thrown off the dating, even back in Vanilla.
Tech trading was not mentioned, only Tech Diff. and Tech brokering.

I suppose it could be said to hurt the AI, but a clever player is going to use it against the AI more than the AI is going to benefit from it imo.

Are you talking about Tech brokering or Tech trading?


The reason for this is the strategic oversight of massive complexity capacity that a player has over the AI. The player knows they just have to make sure to get every tech that other AI players have developed that they don't have and then refuse to trade off techs they have that no other AI players do. The AI is willing to trade brand new discoveries because it thinks gold is as valuable as a tech edge. It is not.

It would be possible to improve the AI for tech trading perhaps, but the best improvement is to not allow it because a true improvement would be that no AI would consider it beneficial to allow another player access to their discoveries unless a very special long term alliance strategy was formed (or it was used as a deceptive ass-kissing diplomatic maneuver.)

Ultimately, I doubt the AI could ever be made to see the big picture well enough to properly guage when and at what value to trade techs without it being MORE exploitable by the player. And it makes getting the dates to align nearly impossible.
The Dates will never be exact. That was proven long ago when Afforess took "Dates" out of AND2 while I was still part of that team. I used them as "Targets". Where the AI and normal players would reach a New Era by the research they could achieve by that Time/#of Turns.

This catering to the "elite" players just screws the H*** out of the game for any one else that wants to play the Mod. So when known Deity players come in and say I'm at X date and X Era I consider the exploits they Know how to use vs the Player and AI that has not gotten into that "method" of play.


Yeah, that bigger is better issue makes the steamroll issue very difficult to contain.

You stop expansion from happening and this Mod will turn into another version of CiV. The whole Civ series thru IV is about expansion. The Steam roll "issue" (which is only true for 1 segment of the players that play) is from trying to placate and pacify the Elite player. All other players do not suffer from this supposed "issue". And this is something I have fought against for Ages and thru many Mods. All game makers Must realize (and many do) that if you only target the elite your sales will be but a pittance of what they should be. So to get a game or a Mod to be widely used there has to be a broader appeal at the cost of putting some of the Elite Off because it's "Not hard enough". When in fact many of those elite that use this cry will Not self regulate themselves from using every exploit there is. So they clamor for "make it harder" all along not giving 1 thought what their desire and unbridled manipulations are doing to that game/mod for every one else that is not "up" to their level of play. And you will Never Ever satisfy the Elite player, ever.

Now that all that has been replied to (which I really did Not want to do,but did), I have been looking at some changes that would affect research rates by Era. So please don't get all wild about taking some of these "suggestions" posted here and making massive changes again until I have a chance to do some more testing and then submit these changes for overall usage. I'm working on a specific area, as I have done in the past, please don't throw a massive blanket over my efforts that drowns these efforts out, okay?

JosEPh
 
Only for the leader in tech. It Does influence and speed up the Non tech leaders so the Whole global society is sped up, except for the isolated and rare AI/player, in terms of research achieved vs "date". Your analysis imhpo is backwards here.
But only the leader in tech should be counted for the date when a tech is achieved. That's the only way to get a true date measurement. So my point is that TD doesn't really influence the dates techs are acheived that much. Sure there's a little speedup, but fairly minimal. That's all I was trying to say.

Are you talking about Tech brokering or Tech trading?
Is not tech brokering only the ability to trade techs you didn't research yourself and thus only an option that makes any difference if tech trading is on? I am open to standing corrected here if I'm wrong. I'm really asking. I thought that was all it was.

The Dates will never be exact. That was proven long ago when Afforess took "Dates" out of AND2 while I was still part of that team. I used them as "Targets". Where the AI and normal players would reach a New Era by the research they could achieve by that Time/#of Turns.

This catering to the "elite" players just screws the H*** out of the game for any one else that wants to play the Mod. So when known Deity players come in and say I'm at X date and X Era I consider the exploits they Know how to use vs the Player and AI that has not gotten into that "method" of play.
I realize its an imperfect science, but shouldn't the dating be based on the best and most exploitive players to help players to guage themselves on how well they tend to achieve vs others? I've always felt that was, in essence, the point of the dates. If you are achieving before the real world dating for a tech, you can be assured you really know your stuff.

You stop expansion from happening and this Mod will turn into another version of CiV. The whole Civ series thru IV is about expansion. The Steam roll "issue" (which is only true for 1 segment of the players that play) is from trying to placate and pacify the Elite player. All other players do not suffer from this supposed "issue". And this is something I have fought against for Ages and thru many Mods. All game makers Must realize (and many do) that if you only target the elite your sales will be but a pittance of what they should be. So to get a game or a Mod to be widely used there has to be a broader appeal at the cost of putting some of the Elite Off because it's "Not hard enough". When in fact many of those elite that use this cry will Not self regulate themselves from using every exploit there is. So they clamor for "make it harder" all along not giving 1 thought what their desire and unbridled manipulations are doing to that game/mod for every one else that is not "up" to their level of play. And you will Never Ever satisfy the Elite player, ever.
There's a few elements here.
1) Our goal is to allow players to play a competitive game all the way through the Galactic era. If we allow for too much expansion too quickly, we must therefore then allow for maps to be much larger than our limits of data allow. Since we're up against some dissapointing limitations there, we must restrict growth and expansion.

Resistance to goal achievement is not a reason for a player to lose interest, it is a reason for the player to continue to maintain interest. Once a goal is obtained, the conflict to obtain it diffuses and the reason to continue to play is gone. So then you start over and you get better at getting to the goal faster.

I don't think we'll keep ANY players interested for long if we cannot get this mod to the point that it remains challenging throughout every single era, and not just from internal threats.

2) The difficulty levels should enable the game to be played by any player at any level, from the most lost beginner to the most seasoned veteran. Given that Vanilla achieved this goal, I know we can achieve it too. I don't begrudge the challenge to keep things interesting for the most advanced among us. Hell... that's OUR challenge that keeps things interesting for US! Even modding is a game in itself.

3) The steam roll issue has been clear to me with almost every single game I open. You know how many that is given how many games I have looked at to debug over the years. It is so very few that don't have thousands of points when their next nearest enemy has under 1k, a map full of civilizations all failing to even begin to keep up with the leader. This happens by Medieval usually. The steam roll is real and it's a big problem in this mod, if not one of the biggest. Obviously, AI is the BIGGEST contributor, but allowing nations to grow so much larger than their neighbors without penalizing them for it (which historically was tremendously perilous to a nation's well being - just look at what happened to Rome and the Mongols!) is also a major factor.

This game is not all that unlike Risk. Risk's biggest flaw is how terribly overwhelming the more achieving players become, making comebacks nearly impossible. Thus the second half of the game there feels much like the second half of the game here, primarily just taking time to mop up and officially end things. I'm not saying this is a unique problem to C2C. It's one of the underlying core issues with Civ in general.

I don't personally know how Civ V has tried to address it but it does sound like they tried. They can win a lot of battles on making things better but by moving to 1UPT, they ruined everything irrevocably to me.

Now that all that has been replied to (which I really did Not want to do,but did), I have been looking at some changes that would affect research rates by Era. So please don't get all wild about taking some of these "suggestions" posted here and making massive changes again until I have a chance to do some more testing and then submit these changes for overall usage. I'm working on a specific area, as I have done in the past, please don't throw a massive blanket over my efforts that drowns these efforts out, okay?
I have only been sharing opinions. I've no plan to work on this area of the mod myself.
 
I thought there was some confusion there.

Tech Trading = trade any tech you have.

Tech Brokering = trade only those techs you have researched yourself ie not those you traded for and possible not those you got from goody huts.

3) that was the problem with the early versions of Civ V, I would know that I had won by turn 10 because I would be in a position to steamroll.
 
I thought there was some confusion there.

Tech Trading = trade any tech you have.

Tech Brokering = trade only those techs you have researched yourself ie not those you traded for and possible not those you got from goody huts.
Either way my point stands. Both are a means of tech trading. It's just a little more restricted with Tech Brokering apparently. Not to the point I think its worth playing with though. But that is an opinion and not something I'd bother to try to convince anyone else of. I would have to think that it would throw off the dating assessments still.

If brokering only allows you to trade the techs you research, it basically means that only bad decisions are allowed the AI that would sell off their tech edge for meaningless gold.

3) that was the problem with the early versions of Civ V, I would know that I had won by turn 10 because I would be in a position to steamroll.

You're saying that the steamroll is worse in Civ V? Sheesh. Joe was trying to say they'd improved on that.
 
You're saying that the steamroll is worse in Civ V? Sheesh. Joe was trying to say they'd improved on that.

Don't think I was saying that how you took it. But then alot of what I post is misunderstood. :p My reference to CiV was from what I had read here at CFC in the CiV forum. I have never played any CiV in any form. Probably never will either unless I can buy it on sale for under $7. Yep that's how well I think of that Civ iteration. :p

There will be new adjustments to the Game Speed settings coming soon. It will affect more than research rates this time.

JosEPh
 
Don't think I was saying that how you took it. But then alot of what I post is misunderstood. :p My reference to CiV was from what I had read here at CFC in the CiV forum. I have never played any CiV in any form. Probably never will either unless I can buy it on sale for under $7. Yep that's how well I think of that Civ iteration. :p

There will be new adjustments to the Game Speed settings coming soon. It will affect more than research rates this time.

JosEPh

No offense but if i knew it was crap from the beginning i would never have bought it, i think i played it about 10 times, and could not stand it, so it sits in the stack of NON-playable stuff , so even at $7 its too much, not even a buck really, lol :p
 
No offense but if i knew it was crap from the beginning i would never have bought it, i think i played it about 10 times, and could not stand it, so it sits in the stack of NON-playable stuff , so even at $7 its too much, not even a buck really, lol :p

No offense taken. :)

@ALL,
New GS adjustments committed to SVN today. Tightens up the gold flow some more as well research time and costs. Also Unit and Building build time adjusted to slow these down too.

JosEPh
 
Did that last change make the techs ALOT longer to get, especially for Marathon?? Also units??

Depending upon Era you are in, then yes.

ALL GS research, Training and Building rates were increased. In addition Research costs by Era were significantly "upped" as you proceed thru the game After Preh Era.

I just lost an Immortal game last night while still in late Preh to Ghengis Khan. Kicked my butt and took no names on a marathon GS game. PM map, large, 8 AI.

I was also using Developing Leaders. Ghengis picked Aggressive and I Picked Philosophical for our 1st Traits. Ouch that hurt! And Conquest or Mastery was Not a Victory Condition picked either.

JosEPh
 
Depending upon Era you are in, then yes.

ALL GS research, Training and Building rates were increased. In addition Research costs by Era were significantly "upped" as you proceed thru the game After Preh Era.

I just lost an Immortal game last night while still in late Preh to Ghengis Khan. Kicked my butt and took no names on a marathon GS game. PM map, large, 8 AI.

I was also using Developing Leaders. Ghengis picked Aggressive and I Picked Philosophical for our 1st Traits. Ouch that hurt! And Conquest or Mastery was Not a Victory Condition picked either.

JosEPh

No offense but i was enjoying for the 1st time Marathon speed, now the tech times are way too much again, will have to go back to Epic i guess . . .:(
 
No offense but i was enjoying for the 1st time Marathon speed, now the tech times are way too much again, will have to go back to Epic i guess . . .:(

More details please. How many turns to research tech and in Which Era?

What Difficulty level?

Just sayin too much does not help me.

And you were the one that said "dates" don't match Era.

Thanks

JosEPh
 
Just for the record, that TH at 500AD game, I had something like 80% of the world's population, 40% of land area, and something like 2000 slaves settled in my capital. One turn per tech, with the occasional extremely rare two-turn tech, was the norm and had been so for quite some time, :hammers: per turn was well above 50k for military units, and I'm fairly sure my capital alone was outproducing every other nation combined, in every category. I also had 300+ Great Military Instructors as the result of acquiring all seven base cultures, and effectively every religion and notable wonder. I'm just saying, that game is an absurd edge case in every way, the result of abusing just about everything I could without outright cheating, and really shouldn't be taken as a baseline for anything :lol:

That said, I agree with the intent of the changes to slow down the tech pace in later eras. I haven't had the time to actually start and play a game to see how it plays out in practice though. I'm unsure about the increases to unit and building costs though. I feel like one of the major features of C2C is Multiple Production, and to me one of the biggest attractions is the ability to truly mass-produce units.

Also, something that I feel should be brought up in regards to unit costs, the cost of upgraded Workboats is a bit absurd, especially in later eras, considering they're consumed when used for Fishing Boats.
 
Just for the record, that TH at 500AD game, I had something like 80% of the world's population, 40% of land area, and something like 2000 slaves settled in my capital. One turn per tech, with the occasional extremely rare two-turn tech, was the norm and had been so for quite some time, :hammers: per turn was well above 50k for military units, and I'm fairly sure my capital alone was outproducing every other nation combined, in every category. I also had 300+ Great Military Instructors as the result of acquiring all seven base cultures, and effectively every religion and notable wonder. I'm just saying, that game is an absurd edge case in every way, the result of abusing just about everything I could without outright cheating, and really shouldn't be taken as a baseline for anything :lol:

Understood, but even the extremes must be counted in the whole.

That said, I agree with the intent of the changes to slow down the tech pace in later eras. I haven't had the time to actually start and play a game to see how it plays out in practice though. I'm unsure about the increases to unit and building costs though. I feel like one of the major features of C2C is Multiple Production, and to me one of the biggest attractions is the ability to truly mass-produce units.

Multiple production should still happen, just not as early as it has been.

Also, something that I feel should be brought up in regards to unit costs, the cost of upgraded Workboats is a bit absurd, especially in later eras, considering they're consumed when used for Fishing Boats.

The Unit costs is T-brd's puppy. Last time I changed anything he was not really happy. He knows there are revisions needed, but wants impo to do them himself to met his criteria. Mine does not match his most of the time. :p

JosEPh :)
 
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