New Idea for Manhattan Project

[Seleukos Helios]

I also agree the Manhattan Project should be somehow changed. Even if you have a modest technological superiority over your opponents, chances are that by the time you have completed the Manhattan Project your main adversaries will have discovered fission as well (rocketry is usually one of the first modern-age techs any AI civilization researchs), and you will have gained nothing in terms of a military advantage. It should either become a national wonder or give one or two ICBMs upon completion.

 

[Napoliean]

Actually it has been possible to shoot down ICBMs since around the 1960s by using nuclear missiles to destroy the incoming ICBMs. Since the explosions are nuclear, they do not need to be very accurate at all to hit the incoming warheads. This system was limited by a treaty between the US and the USSR. However, the USSR had the system operational to protect Moscow, since the treaty permitted the construction of such a system to protect one city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Missile_Defense





http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/a-135.html






Thus, SDI is not fantasy. It has been a reality since the 1960s. Admittedly, shooting down ICBMs with nukes may not be the ideal solution, but the point is that it is possible to shoot them down.

So I think Civ may have SDI right. SDI can work with 1960s technology but this SDI can be overwhelmed if you launch enough nukes at the target, which is the way it is in Civ.

No, you don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Who am I going to believe? Americas best scientists or some pseudo-intellectual wannabees from Wikipedia?

 

[Mewtarthio]

It makes perfect sense that a nuclear missile would be able to destroy another nuclear missile. If it can vaporize an entire city it can certainly vaporize an ICBM. The downside is that, either way, there's going to be a nuclear explosion. Interception only means that you get to choose where it occurs.

 

[Sisiutil]

NP300, that sounds very much like a Soviet solution--a sledgehammer approach combined with an utter disregard for human life. So what if the nuclear fallout and subsequent radiation kills nearly as many citizens as a nuclear strike would have? Mother Russia will survive!

Contrast that with the American approach: advanced technology that is precise, surgical even. Too bad it doesn't work. Good ol' American know-how...

Napoliean--normally I consider fatuity such as yours beneath my notice (let alone my contempt), but I will say this once before henceforth ignoring you completely: you are an idiot. Go back to MySpace and stop bothering the grown-ups.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Sisiutil - warned, flaming.
Napoliean, warned, flaming.

That's quite enough of that. If you can't discuss this politely, you won't be discussing it at all.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Sisiutil]

Moderator Action: Sisiutil - warned, flaming.
Napoliean, warned, flaming.

That's quite enough of that. If you can't discuss this politely, you won't be discussing it at all.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

My apologies to everyone, including Napoliean. A moment of weakness that shall not be repeated.

 

[NP300]

No, you don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Who am I going to believe? Americas best scientists or some pseudo-intellectual wannabees from Wikipedia?

Whoa, I didn't expect my post would stir up such a response. If you'll notice I did not use wikipedia as a my only source. The Soviet anti-missile system is well-known. I've read about it from numerous sources.

America's best scientists worked on the Nike project, among many other ABM projects. Evidently they believed that nuclear missiles could stop ICBMs. Many scientists say that it is possible even with conventional non-nuclear weapons. It certainly doesn't violate any laws of physics.

Besides, if it really is impossible, then why do Russia and China appear to be so bothered by American research and development in anti-missile technologies? If it were impossible to stop ICBMs then surely they wouldn't mind seeing the USA waste many billions of dollars.

Here is a source from the Federation of American Scientists, which I find to be very reliable:

http://www.fas.org/static/about.jsp

The Federation of American Scientists (FAS) was formed in 1945 by atomic scientists from the Manhattan Project who felt that scientists, engineers and other innovators had an ethical obligation to bring their knowledge and experience to bear on critical national decisions, especially pertaining to the technology they unleashed - the Atomic Bomb.

Endorsed by 67 Nobel Laureates in chemistry, economics, medicine and physics, FAS addresses a broad spectrum of issues in carrying out its mission to promote humanitarian uses of science and technology. FAS members build on an honorable history of insisting that rational, evidence-based arguments be heard.

I think they know their stuff.

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/milestone.htm

1955
Using an analog computer, Bell Telephone Laboratories completed 50,000 simulated intercepts of ballistic missile targets. These simulations indicated that it was possible to hit a missile with another missile. Up to this point, a number of scientists said that it was impossible to intercept missiles because of their high speed. This, they said, would be like "hitting a bullet with another bullet."

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/soviet/gorgon.htm

The 51T6 [NATO reporting name GORGON] ABM interceptor missile, introduced in the mid 1980s, is the high-altitude exo-atmospheric component of the improved Moscow ABM system. It is deployed in silos at facilities surrounding Moscow.

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/soviet/gazelle.htm

The 53T6 [NATO reporting name GAZELLE] is a short-range ABM interceptor missile, which was first introduced in the mid-1980s, was designed to intercept ballistic missile reentry vehicles inside the atmosphere. The missile, which has not been displayed in public, is thought to be similar in design and mission to the US Sprint interceptor that was part of the Sentinel/Safeguard system. On 02 November 1999 Russia tested this short-range interceptor rocket for the Moscow anti-ballistic missile system, in what appeared to be a symbolic warning to the United States not to go ahead with an expanded ABM system.

Nuclear ABM missiles were successfully tested as early as the 1960s, so we know they work. This isn't sci-fi:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/milestone.htm

4 Mar 61
According to one report, the Soviets completed the first interception and destruction of a missile warhead. An official report described this intercept as follows:

"The V-1000 antimissile was launched according to a computer command. The detonation of the antimissile's high-explosive fragmentation warhead was conducted at an altitude of 25 km according to a command from earth from a computer after which, based upon data from the film recorder, the ballistic missile warhead began to fall apart."

19 Jul 62
During a test over the Pacific Ocean, a Nike Zeus missile fired from the Army's Kwajalein test facility intercepted a dummy warhead from an Atlas ICBM. Although the Zeus only came within two kilometers of the warhead, this was close enough so that the nuclear warhead of a fully operational Zeus would have destroyed the ICBM warhead.

22 Dec 62
A Zeus missile came within 200 meters of a reentry vehicle during a simulated intercept over the Pacific Ocean.

200 meters is probably close enough for even non-nuclear munitions to destroy the ICBM warhead. It is certainly close enough for a small nuke to destroy it.

10 Jun 84
The core of the Army's new hit-to-kill interceptor technology was successfully demonstrated in the homing overlay experiment. In this demonstration, a test intercept vehicle was launched from Kwajalein Missile Range aboard a modified Minuteman rocket...

...Once free of the mother ship, the kill vehicle deployed its umbrella structure, crashed into the target vehicle, and destroyed it. This successful intercept followed partial successes in two other test flights.

http://www.fas.org/news/russia/2000/CEP20000204000031.htm

The radar is a component part of the SPRN and at the same time one of the most important nodes of the A-135 system, which covers Russia's capital reliably against a missile/nuclear strike.

http://www.fas.org/news/russia/1997/drsov161_s97021.htm
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/soviet/pill_box.htm

The modified Don 2NP large multifunction phased-array radar at Pushkino is an integral part of the A-135 Moscow ABM system. The radar, which has 360-degree coverage, provides support for GAZELLE and GORGON interceptor systems.

More links:

http://www.fas.org/news/russia/1995/drsov082_s95023.htm
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/soviet/index.html
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/index.html
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/

 

[NP300]

NP300, that sounds very much like a Soviet solution--a sledgehammer approach combined with an utter disregard for human life. So what if the nuclear fallout and subsequent radiation kills nearly as many citizens as a nuclear strike would have? Mother Russia will survive!

Well, from what I understand of the Soviet/Russian system, it is intended to try to stop the ICBMs in the upper atmosphere. The multimegaton gorgon missiles are intended to explode way up there. The shorter range gazelles are only 10 kilotons each and these would come in only if the gorgons failed. Thus, the fallout should be minimal. Keep in mind that radioactive fallout from nuclear bombs is primarily due to the irradiated dust and earth that is raised into the air by the bomb. But there is little dust in the upper atmosphere.

Of course, if the gazelles were used too low in the lower atmosphere it might cause enough fallout to be of concern. But even then, it seems to be better than letting the ICBMs hit your cities at the optimal altitude for devastation.

 

[Napoliean]

NP300, that sounds very much like a Soviet solution--a sledgehammer approach combined with an utter disregard for human life. So what if the nuclear fallout and subsequent radiation kills nearly as many citizens as a nuclear strike would have? Mother Russia will survive!

Contrast that with the American approach: advanced technology that is precise, surgical even. Too bad it doesn't work. Good ol' American know-how...

Napoliean--normally I consider fatuity such as yours beneath my notice (let alone my contempt), but I will say this once before henceforth ignoring you completely: you are an idiot. Go back to MySpace and stop bothering the grown-ups.

Check your PM.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Napoliean - warned, flaming. The only reason you're not on vacation (read:banned) is because you edited that out.

Another post like that will earn you a ban.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Napoliean]

Moderator Action: Napoliean - warned, flaming. The only reason you're not on vacation (read:banned) is because you edited that out.

Another post like that will earn you a ban.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

So you can read what I edit out?

Also can I just mention something, the rules of this forum are pretty ambiguous and can be interpreted differently by different individuals. I think the rules should be a lot more clearer then they are especially on behavior.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Napoliean - 3 day ban, ignoring moderator warnings.

I suggest you re-read the rules. They're clear enough for most everyone else here. I also suggest you pay particular attention to the part about respecting the moderators.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Armed_Maniac]

Lots of flaming I see... Anyways, what's this with shooting nukes at nukes? They simply use anti-ballistics missiles to intercept...

 

[Armed_Maniac]

The manhattan project should be a NATIONAL wonder.

Agreed. Civs should need to build it themselves.

 

[Dida]

Why don't you make one then?

This is absurd, just because we cannot make a game of our own doesn't mean we don't have the right to critisize. It is like replying to someone who is unhappy with Bush' foreign policy by saying 'why don't you be the president and see what you can do'. Just because this guy is not the president doesn't mean he is not entitled to his opinion. We as consumers have every right to comment on the products we buy and demand that it be fit for the purpose it was advertised.

 

[naterator]

This is absurd, just because we cannot make a game of our own doesn't mean we don't have the right to critisize.

you can't be serious. have you read this whole thread, or just browsed around? first of all his criticism was about the realism of the SDI, where he clipped some quote about missles, and chose to emphasize the following:

Targeting cannot be changed after launch, nor can strategic missiles be recalled or destroyed in flight.

the meaning of the bold is that once a missle is launched, there's no "self destruct" button that can be pushed in case of an accident, NOT his assumption that missles become invulnerable once launched, and even a nuclear blast can't deter them from their tagret!
based on this rediculous assumption, he concludes that the game is made by dumb idiots, then proceeds to jump all over everyone until he gets himself a 3 day weekend. and the "why don't you make one then" comment seemed to be directed at his comment that "Its not hard to make a game.", and by that time, neapolitan (or whatever his misspelled name is), had already begun looking for a fight. i'm with olleus, if you want to dish it out, get ready to take it. i'd hope once his dishing out of facts was disproved, that he wouldn't need to start dishing out insults, but sometimes that's where people want to go...

 

[Napoliean]

Does someone know how I can edit the power of the nukes? they are abit crap.

 

[naterator]

Does someone know how I can edit the power of the nukes? they are abit crap.

in the C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML edit the globaldefines xml file. theres at least 4 or 5 things you can change.

 

[Napoliean]

in the C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML edit the globaldefines xml file. theres at least 4 or 5 things you can change.

Can you do that for me, I want one nuke to be equivalent to 100. Basically, so it does massive amounts of damge. You see I'm lazy and also a freeloader.