New map project

[AbsintheRed]

Although I am not a modder I would like to add my 10 cents for the issue.

UnCopain's Map
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=156846

Personally with the recent change my qualms with the map were entirely satisfied. And as such I think that it should be kept pretty much the same.

NOW, if a COMPLETE map overhaul were required I believe that a Europe taken from the Robinsons projection would be the easiest to work with. Simply using Google Maps would provide most of the city names. Granted maps of europe itself almost NEVER use this projection and as such would require abit more digging for older cities.

Now I am not suggesting using UnCopain's map. Merely the projection and angling.

Here's another proposal. It's a cutout of Wikipedia's Albers Projection, so it's equal area. Projections like Robinson are made for whole world maps, since we're only doing Europe conical projections might be sensible (most of the distortion is outside the map).

Robinson projection is easy to work with, but I agree with Morholt that a couple more projections would be more accurate
The Albers map you posted here look very nice

Funny, I would argue the opposite. The Albers projections makes sense technically, but I notice immediately that Iberia looks stretched vertically. Iberia and Morocco don't look "good", per se. I assume that can be slightly edited though, that Albers projections conveniently includes Iraq, Georgia, and Armenia and leaves out the Northernmost part of Russia. I like it.

Altough I agree with this too, Iberia does look a little stretched
I will probably mess around a little with Albers projections a little, will post if some of the results look good enough

 

[Michael Vick]

Also, the rice is a small mistake in the resources.py

The correct coordinates are 36, 24. I would also consider moving the rice spawn in Italy to under Milan. Right now it spawns right next to Venice and a wheat resource, Milan needs it more IMO. The AA outside Seville is also still missing.

 

[The Turk]

I have to disagree, great cities were founded in places where there was a lot of food, and other resources in its vicinity. Frankly the human player can build cities wherever they want to, but a few cities for each civilization, should be built more often. Such as for the Al-Andalusians, Cordoba (naturally), Granada, Seville, Toledo (to name a couple off the top of my head). That way you have much more stable and better looking civilizations by the end of the day.

 

[Morholt]

The Albers map you posted here look very nice
...
Altough I agree with this too, Iberia does look a little stretched
I will probably mess around a little with Albers projections a little, will post if some of the results look good enough

There's another conical projection called Lamberts which preserves shape over area. Apparently it's recommended specifically for Europe maps by the EEA so the that's something I guess.

I found a mapping program that can generate high resolution maps of pretty much any projection, haven't figured out how to get topographical maps yet though.

Lamberts, centered on 10 degrees east. I moved Iceland SW a bit, it would have been outside the map otherwise.

 

[3Miro]

There's another conical projection called Lamberts which preserves shape over area. Apparently it's recommended specifically for Europe maps by the EEA so the that's something I guess.

I found a mapping program that can generate high resolution maps of pretty much any projection, haven't figured out how to get topographical maps yet though.

Lamberts, centered on 10 degrees east. I moved Iceland SW a bit, it would have been outside the map otherwise.

Is it just me, or is this pretty close to what we had originally for RFCE? Especially Iberia.

Anyway, Iceland and the Atlantic islands will be outside of the map in all cases. It is best to put them on the edge and make sure they are divided by Ocean.

 

[Michael Vick]

Is it just me, or is this pretty close to what we had originally for RFCE? Especially Iberia.

I agree, Iberia and Anatolia are a bit too tilted for my taste.

 

[Thor Macklin]

I must honestly say I DESPISE the Lamberts Projection. It's difficult to work with in maps as only europe maps using it's projection are combatible and would be thoroughly confusing for playing a game based on memory.

 

[AbsintheRed]

@Morholt: I also thought that tilting the map 15 degrees is a little much. I was experimenting with 8-10 degrees and mostly on Albers projections, and the results was more or less ok

@3Miro and Michael Vick: The tilt in Iberia is similar, I agree. But otherwise there are pretty significant differences.
As I said, the old map wasn't really fitting for any of the projections I know of, and had pretty huge mistakes IMO

@Thor Macklin: I don't think the Lamberts projection would be that bad, but I also prefer the Albers maps

 

[AbsintheRed]

2 versions I like with Albers projection (both are 8% tilted):

Spoiler :

The first one has a grid of 100*130
Looks pretty great, but the main disadvantage is that it has much larger unusable areas than we would like to see
Also, we don't get as many extra tiles in the crowded areas - which was the main goal of making this new map

The second is 100*140, and a much similar representation to the one we currently have in RFCE.
Cut out 1-2 tiles on the south and east, and at least 6-7 tiles on the north edge
Iceland have to be moved SW liked Morholt did it on his Lambert map
Because the vertical/horizontical rate is changed, the 100*130 grid is no longer valid
If 100*140 is too much we can always reduce it a little, maybe somewhere around 90*130
I do like the the way mainland Europe can be represented with 100*140 though

 

[AbsintheRed]

I played around a little more with projections, and so far this is the one I liked the most
(Iberia and the southern parts are slightly different)
The grid on the first one is 90*135, on the second 100*150
It should probably be somewhere between these values

 

[Morholt]

Very nice, looks good and catches all the relevant areas. I think Baghdad is slightly off the map though, were you planning to "fake" it in or leave it out?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm not really sure about Baghdad, but I'm closer to leave it out
Wouldn't it cause too much "trouble" if we have it on the map?
I cannot imagine it having as a barb or indy city - it's far too important for that
Also not sure if we can correctly represent it with only Arabia as an islamic civ in the area - and I really don't want to add civs in the Mesopotamian area.
Or do you think we can somewhat solve this with barbs/indies?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Also, if you do like the latest map suggestion
What do you think about the exact grid size?
I never tested K-mod, do you think those speed tweaks are significant enough?
Should we stay closer to 90*135 or can we go somewhere around 100*150?

 

[J. pride]

I'm not really sure about Baghdad, but I'm closer to leave it out
Wouldn't it cause too much "trouble" if we have it on the map?
I cannot imagine it having as a barb or indy city - it's far too important for that
Also not sure if we can correctly represent it with only Arabia as an islamic civ in the area - and I really don't want to add civs in the Mesopotamian area.
Or do you think we can somewhat solve this with barbs/indies?

The inclusion of Baghdad largely depends on if you plan on adding Egypt and the Almoravids (like RFCE++). If you do then Arabia's role becomes much more limited to the Middle East (like historically with the Abbasids) and adding Baghdad would make sense in that scinerio. On the other hand if Arabia is supposed to represent every civilization between Syria and Morocco, then It wouldn't make sense to add yet another city.

 

[AbsintheRed]

According to the current plans Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt will all be included, more or less the same way they were in RFCE++

 

[Morholt]

I never tested K-mod, do you think those speed tweaks are significant enough?
Should we stay closer to 90*135 or can we go somewhere around 100*150?

Speed is better but not twice of what it was, so with a 100*150 map it will probably be slower than RFCE++ is now.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The correct coordinates are 36, 24.

I just checked, the Iberian rice already spawns on 36,24
And the resources.py wasn't touched for at least 50 revisions (last time somewhere around early january), so it was probably a mistake on your end

 

[AbsintheRed]

Speed is better but not twice of what it was, so with a 100*150 map it will probably be slower than RFCE++ is now.

Yeah, I'm a little afraid of a 150*100 map
The current 7300 tiles compared to 15000 there
Probably we shouldn't go over 13-14000 tiles

 

[Michael Vick]

I just checked, the Iberian rice already spawns on 36,24
And the resources.py wasn't touched for at least 50 revisions (last time somewhere around early january), so it was probably a mistake on your end

My mistake, the incorrect coordinates I mentioned were from RFCE++.

I'm not really sure about Baghdad, but I'm closer to leave it out
Wouldn't it cause too much "trouble" if we have it on the map?
I cannot imagine it having as a barb or indy city - it's far too important for that
Also not sure if we can correctly represent it with only Arabia as an islamic civ in the area - and I really don't want to add civs in the Mesopotamian area.
Or do you think we can somewhat solve this with barbs/indies?

I already researched and addressed this.

...we don't need any more civs there, there are no other civs to speak of even in real history. We already have an "Arabia" that represents the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids... we already have the Mamluks from RFCE++, and then the Ottomans. I just listed all the significant civs that ruled Baghdad in our time period. (with the exception of the Persians that held Baghdad for 23 years, but this is negligible; the Kingdom of Naples ruled Naples for quite a bit more than that yet Naples is indy for most of the game). The various Turko-Mongol entities that attacked Baghdad now and then can be represented by Barbarians.

There would be no "trouble", we already have all the civs we need, just a few barbarian spawns North/Northeast of Baghdad are in order.

 

[urban]

What is the current feeling on Germany/HRE? Are we taking from RFCE++? As I just posted in that forum, I think Germany should be city states, that are conquerable, or perhaps have a mechanism where unions can happen between these indies and civs in the HRE, perhaps most likely with Prussia and Austria. Or just those two, and have it be a UP.

Along the same lines, are people thinking of including unions? I love that mechanism in RFCE++.

Or should this be in another thread, and this just be map-related?