New PBEM - 8 players!

[Genghis_Kai]

I also wish to continue the game just as most of you would. But the reason why I said I wanted to quit, is because I cannot see how to resolve this internal problem within our game that existed right from the beginning.

There is one person who continuously harasses people, particularly on me, without control. He first stereotyped me as non-European, then blamed me for dictating the rules to favor myself. In a private email to me only, he even said it is my fault for making the scenario the way it is, such that it disadvantaged him. That is, he basically dislike me, being the scenario creator, the PBEM game administrator, as a player and as a man of my race. I have swallowed all those words before just because I wish to continue the game. But did it get better? It obviously didn't.

I really don't know why he hate me so much. When there is any chance, he fired on me with no respect at all. The only reason I could think of is because of my nationality. There seems to be no way that both of us can continue to play in the same game happily.

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Slow down Kai, your nationality per se has nothing to do with it at all. I will not allow that you blame me as racist when the only thing I do is critizise you, and try to find rational explanations for our misunderstandings.

Yes, you are non-european, so what? I am non-asian. This means we have different cultural basics, which makes neither of them better. Read my posts again: I told several times that there is just a subjective way to judge the value, but no objective way, so judging the value of different cultures is nonsense. But differences ARE prone to produce misunderstandings.

A few posts ago you yourself asked to keep some of the critizism out of the forums. Now you want to blame me for the fact that I told you in a private email that I think you did choose the wrong way to nerf the USA economically? Mind you, I never said that it was WRONG to do so, just the way was not the one that would best present reality given the CIV 4 engine. This was to give you feedback, and allow you to develop your mod to be even more realistic and playable. If you took it as insult, I'm sorry if you have trouble with my posts, distinguishing between factual critics and personal insults. It was never intended as insults.

No, I don't dislike you as a person.

But yes, seeing your tendency to, lets say, trying to achieve your goals by all possible means as long as they are not expressively forbidden, I have some trouble trusting in your impartiality and thrustworthyness. Ace said it clearly: for him it's a question of personal taste, and I suppose we have to agree that we disagree in this question of taste.

And to say it again: no, your nationality, race, hair color, shoe size, prefered shampoo or soft drink has NOTHING to do with this.

Questioning if it could be a problem of cultural differences might not have been political correct, but I think its honest and might be one of the reasons.


Now what I'm REALY angry about is your step to call me a racist, by claiming it has to do with your nationality. And make it a "him or me" decision. Thats neither honest, nor adult. I would like to ask you to rethink your post above, and rewrite it in a way that is not blemishing your great job with your mod.

If you want to get something done, you can't just listen to those that praise you. You also have to listen to those that take apart your work stone for stone, and are looking for errors or weaknesses. I'm doing just this, as I did understand your call for a beta testers in the PBEM. Following this I consider it necessary to look at the reasons for some misunderstandings. Is it a weakness of the scenario? Or is it a misunderstanding based on cultural differences? Depending on which is closer to the truth, different approaches to modifying your scenario/mod are necessary.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

Bastian, lets read just one of your previous post and see what you wrote:

Because for me realising someone is cheating (mind you, I suspect the one probably doing so is not even considering it a cheat, so again the problem of differing standards) was putting me VERY close to jumping out of the game. I don't know about you others, but I just can't stand cheaters.

Is this not calling me a cheater? Is this not a "him or me decision, Thats neither honest, nor adult"?

Mind you, I have never mention any names in post #321, just like you did with your previous posts. Now you get "VERY angry" and ask me to delete my post because I hinted you as a racist. How would you think I feel when reading your posts, emails and PMs, trying to hint, or even call me straight, that I am non adult, a cheater, non democratic and non trustworthy?

In regards to your "feedback" on US economy, read how many people that gave constructive comments on this forum and how many of them I accepted. If your real intention was really trying to give feedback, then I am afraid it wasn't really look this it was the way you expressed.

Look, one thing I know for sure is that, if we continue to argue, we will just both gets more angry. So that's why I can't see how we could move along.

 

[Dazz_G]

I have to say that this is incredible.

In all my years of PBEMing, with players from all over the world, I have never come across a 'discussion' of this nature where things have degenerated so badly and the vile 'racist' word has been used.

I have read all the above posts closely. Some things I agree with, some I don't. I shall not say which as this will inevitably add to the arguement and make matters worse. In fact, if ever there was a 'discussion' that should have remained private rather than on the forums, this is most certainly it.

It is a pity things have come to this. I firmly believe Kai has made a great scenario which I enjoy greatly on single player. The multiplayer attempts have, however, been plagued with problems from the start.

Therefore, for various reasons, which shall remain private as I stated, I am leaving this game immediately. In all honesty, I don't see how this game will ever continue anyway, bearing in mind what has been posted.

 

[Ikier]

There were 5 fighters in the air visible. And it was the 4th attack or something...

In my own games I have several times have had my own fighters circling around eg a carrier. Even after I've used them for ground-attacks. What I'm saying is that they won't intercept - it's just the graphic that has a bug.

Naturally - I don't know if that is the reason here, but it sure can be

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Kai, look at the quote again. And look at the following sentences as well. Yes, I do consider excessive reloading cheating ... and made sure to say in the very same sentence that you probably consider it not cheating. So no, this is not calling you a cheater. It is saying: I consider this cheating, but others do have differing opinions on that.

And read the second part again: I say's: it was putting me VERY close to. Now ... It is not saying: it makes me.

You see the difference? I put your behaviour, which is probably completely ok for you in its context. And brought my emotional reaction in a relation with your and my cultural backround, which allows me to understand you position better. Which again allows me to get my own angry emotions under control. This in my opinion is adult and honest behaviour, and I think its the behaviour you mostly show yourself (though till now not on this occasion).

Plus: I didn't ask you to delete your post, I merely asked you to rethink it, because I think you wrote out of anger, without thinking everything through thoroughly. And thus editing MIGHT be a possibility. And editing it might be more productive for you in a long term view, but at the end its your decision.

But I suppose I found the biggest problem: I am used to critizise BEHAVIOUR and decisions very clearly. If some behaviour is problematic, I'll call it this way. Now I get the feeling whenever I call a behaviour problematic, you consider this a slight on your person. Well, I can only ask you again to read my posts: I nowhere attack you as a person, but always only critizise decisions or behaviour. Which is not the same as insulting you as a person.

About getting angry: actually I AM not angry. And thus wont become more angry. And there you got me on a grammar mistake: I should have written: what made me VERY angry. Sorry, I'm not free of making mistakes myself.

But given my occupation I did learn how to cope with anger by thinking through it, identifying its sources, and eliminating it via cognitive processes. Like finding explanations for misunderstandings and working them out. This includes accepting the possibility of longer lasting emotional affects, but WITHOUT leting them dominate me.

I hope you can see through your anger as well, and find out that I don't hate you, nor despise you or have any racistic prejudices against you. I'm just trying to be as honest and open as possible to you, as I do see this as necessity to come to terms in a multi-cultural gaming situation.

 

[borgg]

Therefore, for various reasons, which shall remain private as I stated, I am leaving this game immediately. In all honesty, I don't see how this game will ever continue anyway, bearing in mind what has been posted.

Im very unahppy about this.

 

[Fandazma]

ok, all is said. Lets concentrate on the thing we all are here for, the game!

to the point with this reloading. It is very funny. I thougt it is possible to check the savegame if someone is reloading. So i have play my turns in one part (dont ask how many discussions i have with my wife about this^^) to proof that i not use reloading.

Dont ask my how i came to think, that the savegame can checkt. I cant remember. Does anyone know of a possibility to do so? Or is this idea born only in my civ-contaminated brain. If there is sutch a possibility it will solve the problem of "trust" be "control" .

If not, i think also it is enough that everyone say he will not use it. What other chance we have in that point?

@Dazz: i hope you make a joke and you will continue the game??

at last:

send turn to Ace

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Fanda it is possible to check for reloads, if you use the HOF mod. Though I do not think its necessary here.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Turn recieved.

Martin

 

[Ace of Spades]

I am doing my turn right now. Before I send my turn to anyone, however, I would like to know how we proceed with the game? Or do we proceed at all?

Personally, I would appreciate if we could all overcome our differences and continue playing. Maybe we should not decide immediately, but pause the game for a few days until this crisis has been resolved.

Best Regards,
Martin

P.S.: Turn is done, I will wait before sending it, however.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

I think I will quit. As Dazz said, how could we continue? But Martin's suggestion might be a good idea.

Guys, sorry to bring out the vile racist issue, but it was my honest feelings towards Bastian's behavior. Bastian, given that now you claim you have no bad feelings towards me and my 'cultural background', regardless of how you have expressed yourself, I will forget the past. I hope you could do the same. We can all then get on with our life and Civ'ing.

I shall keep silents on our conflicts from now on. To everyone in the game, thank you so much for the great game time!

 

[Geronimo20]

Well I must say I am a bit disappointed about the things I read in the forum.
I don't have a big experience in MP, but I found this game opportunity very interesting to initiate to role playing. I appreciated the turns I played, trying to use diplo in this very intricate game. Now, we clearly lost contact with our roles!

I am convinced that everyone has tried his best to succeed in each turn. Maybe some replays have been done but that is due to he PBEM nature of the game not to the scenario (in another context double move is a curse for Pitboss game)? Maybe some words were badly written or misunderstood because of the tension in the game?
But I admit I only have a partial view on all that, and not that much experience to judge.

Anyway, just to give my point of view, I agree with Martin who proposes to pause the game for a few days. Maybe some solutions will be found in the meantime...

 

[Fandazma]

Very good way, Martin! Let us all calm done (ok only this gays how calm up before) and then make it like adults.
Sure the relation between Kai and Bastian will never be Romeo und Juliet but maybe something like Brat Pitt and Jennifer Anniston (who will be Jennifer? ). They got to be friends after a time of missunderstandings and hurtings.
In some of sutch cases (Jesus ans Saulus) some great friendships are evolved after a period of rejection between to peoples.
Let the history be our teacher!

The only problem we have then is, if Daze will still play?

I wrote him a pm and will post the answer here, when it comes.

 

[Fandazma]

No news from Dazz until now.

What do we do?

Set Dazz's nations to KI or search a replacement-player?

Ok Ki for russia is a bad idea. But eventually one of the player how plays minor nations e.g Ace will overtake russia and we can then set Irak etc to KI?

 

[Ace of Spades]

Well, if Dazz has not answered you so far, the I guess his decision to leave the game stands firm. Does anyone know how to set a player to AI? Because personally, I would not know how to do that.

Since Kai has confirmed that he would like to quit as well, this would mean we are two players short. We would have to find players for Britain and Russia as well, two of the "key players" in the game. Of course, I could offer to quit playing the middle east and take over Russia, but given the state of the game, where we are only two turns into the game, and already two players are quitting, I would rather suggest that, if we still want to play, we could start a new game from scratch, and tune it to the number of players willing to participate.

Of course it hurts to abandon a game that we have already put much effort in, but these are sunk costs, and I think that we would probably be better off to start fresh. Anyway, I am willing to continue the game as well, but we should gather some opinions about this.

From my observation, every game with that many players needs someone to organize it and push the others to decisions, and the person who did that for the last games was Kai. Since he wants to quit now, unless someone decides to take over the organizing job from him, I am quite sure the current game will just fade out.

Best Regards,
Martin

 

[Genghis_Kai]

Guys, I feel deeply sorry for this. I truly hope someone will be able to organize another PBEM game successfully.

I shall be staying out of PBEM for at least a while. But should there be any needs of advise for modifying the GEM scenarios or any kind of help needed for organizing another game, I am willing to offer my two cents.