New pitboss

[Imperator Knoedel]

Indeed, I'll try that.

 

[sinimusta]

I'm going to need a pause this turn since I wont be able to play tonight. I'll play tomorrow asap in order not to delay the game too much. So can someone pause the game before the turn rolls?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

While we are at it REM just declared war on me, and it looks like it's gonna take a while so we need to get to an agreement regarding the turn order between the two of us.

 

[2metraninja]

I'm going to need a pause this turn since I wont be able to play tonight. I'll play tomorrow asap in order not to delay the game too much. So can someone pause the game before the turn rolls?

I see you managed to get to the game and pause yourself, so you have time now to play your turn.

While we are at it REM just declared war on me, and it looks like it's gonna take a while so we need to get to an agreement regarding the turn order between the two of us.

I'd hate to say that, but if indeed there is a war between REM and Imp.Knoedel, from what I see on civstats REM double-moved Imp.Knoedel, since REM played last in the turn and then before Imp.Knoedel in the new turn.

Quote from the related rule:

1. War double moves (for shorter double-moves or DM). No war double-moves are allowed. Game will be reloaded in case of a double-move. Here in red is what war double moves consist of:
...
1.2 Player A plays in turn X, then Player B plays after him in the same turn X without declaring war to Player A. The turn switches and Player B plays before Player A and declares war to Player A.

Easiest will be if they agree to Imp.Knoedel double-moving back, playing first in the new 50AD turn, setting the turn order with Imp.Knoedel playing first and REM playng second in the turn order from now on in the war.

 

[2metraninja]

Additional thoughts:

- it might be wise Sinimusta to not finish his turn or let the turn roll in case REM and Imp.Knoedel cant agree on solution to the double-move without using reload.

- Imp.Knoedel should had reported this way earlier after he played his turn.

 

[sinimusta]

Additional thoughts:

- it might be wise Sinimusta to not finish his turn or let the turn roll in case REM and Imp.Knoedel cant agree on solution to the double-move without using reload.

- Imp.Knoedel should had reported this way earlier after he played his turn.

Sry but I noticed this message only after going in to play the turn.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

I see you managed to get to the game and pause yourself, so you have time now to play your turn.



I'd hate to say that, but if indeed there is a war between REM and Imp.Knoedel, from what I see on civstats REM double-moved Imp.Knoedel, since REM played last in the turn and then before Imp.Knoedel in the new turn.

Quote from the related rule:


Easiest will be if they agree to Imp.Knoedel double-moving back, playing first in the new 50AD turn, setting the turn order with Imp.Knoedel playing first and REM playng second in the turn order from now on in the war.

I'm really confused now. We were at peace, then I declared war the next turn. I thought that there were no peace double moves?

EDIT : Ah I just read what you posted. Sorry my bad, of course imp can double move me back if those are the rules. I thought that we had agreed though as long as you weren't in a turn split from a war dec already then there were no double moves?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

I knew something was fishy when that stack had moved four tiles in one turn, but I wasn't sure if the double move restriction also applies to the turn before declaring war.

 

[ReallyEvilMuff]

I knew something was fishy when that stack had moved four tiles in one turn, but I wasn't sure if the double move restriction also applies to the turn before declaring war.

Same imp, I didn't think it applied to the turn before the war. I am sorry, would a double move back be ok or not?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Yes, I will be first in turn order from now on.

 

[2metraninja]

Good, glad we are dealing like grown-ups in here Congrats on the sportsman spirit on both sides.


Abstract:

Spoiler :

As for the difference in the cases between HBHR vs REM and REM vs Imp.Knoedel, the key difference is in the first case there was still no war declared. A player can move twice in a row if this does not include moving when already in war. As I said already few times, the act of declaration of war is clear and good enough key point to use as a turn- around point in a game designed to be played in turn by turn, but played simultaneous.

I also understand the idea that one can stick to turn order once he decides for himself he is going to war, but this is not practical to be applied as a rule and guarantees reload for several very important reasons.

First is no one else knows when the player decided. Yes, we all play by honor code, but what if someone does not? How are we - the ones who play by honor code catch that this guy with 100% certainty is not being honest? These is no sure way. One can say: but he started whipping and drafting, and the player can say in his defense "I was not 100% sure who I am going to attack". Or: "I felt endangered and wanted to have standing army just in case". No one can deny this with 100% safety. And we leave doors for shenanigans. This way we let players who are not 100% honest take advantage over honest players. This is not good in my opinion.

Second is even if we somehow prove this guy was preparing for war, it might be good 10 turns between his double-move after 100% sure preparation for war and the actual declaration. Are we going to roll back 10 turns? I think this will be terrible and is not a working solution.

Third is what if one knows that he will attack a neighbor of his. But lets say he plans to stay smaller and tech to drafted rifles and then swarm with advanced troops his bigger, but backward neighbor. But this decision can come like 100 turns before the actual execution. Is this player required to maintain turn order for the next 3-4 months? Hardly achieved.

Fourth: Even if the coming declaration of war is obvious - like the case with HBHR roading and moving huge stacks toward REM, and we try to use the key point of "seeing the upcoming enemy", it is still best to have the actual declaration of war act as key point. What if your neighbor saw you with a spy? Or if he saw you with a ship and then retreat in the fog? Or a guerrilla2 scout and then hide behind that hill? What we say: "But I saw you!" - well, but "I did not knew you saw me". In this case if the defender is sure he will be attacked and wants to set the turn order, he declares war himself. Turn order is set and it is done with it. Simple as that.

 

[dick76]

mackoti sorry but I forgot to pause before finish the turn. I do not know why you pause but if something important can be done reload from my safe.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

So who is controlling Sumeria now? I kinda sorta urgently have to contact their player and the ingame communication is so inadequate.

 

[2metraninja]

Is that the ex-HBHR's nation? If so, it is Mackoti, but his CFC nick is Bistrita.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Eh, never mind all that. Would it be in order for me to retire? As they now so foolishly gifted their army to REM there is no way I can stand up to the English invasion. I'm currently thinking about whether to try and fight REM to my dying breath or to just roll over and die so they have an easier time in their subsequent attempts to conquer the north and thus enact revenge against the dastardly Sumerians who are ultimately to blame for my untimely demise.

 

[sinimusta]

Well, at least I'd consider intentionally bad defense as bad sportmanship and retiring to AI would also be very bad for game balance.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Well, at least I'd consider intentionally bad defense as bad sportmanship and retiring to AI would also be very bad for game balance.

Then what do you call extorting tribute of about 150 Gold from someone with your giant elepult stack next to his borders in exchange for peace, then turning around and selling that giant elepult stack to a third player who uses it straight away to attack the player who just thought he bought himself security?

 

[2metraninja]

There is no shame in fighting to death against impossible odds. There is also no way one to secure himself from every possible way he to be outsmarted. And there is no punishment for breaking your word, so you are free to do as you wish. Fight back against REM, or attack the one who mistreated you if this is at all possible because of the game mechanics, or use cunning diplomatic move on your own.

 

[methinkso]

You can try to hold on for dear life and manage to survive due to the inconvenie of using a bunch of resources and sacrificial units to take you being not worth it, like I did. Though all i have going for me now is simply not being dead... but its better than nothing!

 

[sinimusta]

I'm going to need a pause this turn again. Can someone pause the game before the turn rolls? I'm in a turn split which makes timing harder.