New possible leaders?

[The Capo]

As a leaderhead-maker, I find this thread pretty interesting. I am working on a bunch of new leaders right now. But I'll make some comments on some of the civs discussed already here:

Germany - In my mod I added both Hitler and Adenauer. I added Hitler because I worked on the Hitler LH project with really talented guys like Ekmek, Bernie14, the Coyote, and Chuggi. So I had to put him in my mod, if you haven't seen the LH yet I suggest you give it a look, its really awesome. There's a link to my gallery in my signature.

India - I added Akbar the Great and Jawaharlal Nehru to India in my mod. I am currently working on a Nehru LH, and you can see previews in my LH gallery.

Netherlands - I added Maruits van Nassau to give them a militaristic leader, and I added Johan de Witt.

England - Henry VIII was added.

America - I gave them Reagan as a fourth leader, I am not a huge fan of Reagan but the LH looked really good so I added it.

Spain - I gave them Philip II, Charles V (Carlos I), and Francisco Franco.

Arabia - I gave Arabia Abu Bakr (since he was in Civ III) and Harun al-Rashid.

Japan - I gave them Hirohito (mainly because I wanted to include all WWII leaders in my mod), Meiji, and Jingu in order to add another female leader.

Franks - I changed the HRE to the Franks and added Clovis, probably their best leader after Charlemagne.

France - I added Cardinal Richelieu because his actions lead to the power that was Louis XIV and the French absolute monarchy.

Portugal - I added Afonso Henriques and Henry the Navigator.

Vikings - Harald Hardrada and Canute.

Russia - Ivan the Terrible, he definitely deserves to be in.

Turks - I renamed the Ottomans to the Turks and added Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Zulus - I gave them Cetshwayo.

Babylon - Nebuchadnezzar II.

Egypt - To Egypt I added Amenhotep III and Ptolemy Soter (to represent the Hellenic period).

Rome - I gave Rome Marcus Aurelius and Scipio Africanus, I originally had Constantine in the mod for Rome (and for the Byzantines actually) but I wanted a Republican-era leader and figured I could use Constantine for Byzantium anyway, although he really should be a Roman leader (or at least both).

Persia - I added Xerxes to Persia.

Sumeria - I gave them Sargon of Akkad.

Mali - I gave them Sundiata Keita, Sunni Ali Ber, and Askia Muhammed (although the last two are Songhai/Soninke leaders).

Ethiopia - I gave them Haile Selassie, Menelik II, and Lalibela.

Mongolia - I added Ogedei Khan.

China - I put in Tang Taizong and Empress Dowager Cixi. There are probably better leaders than Cixi but I wanted to represent that period and add another female leader.

Celts - I added Cartimandua.

Aztecs - I gave the Aztecs both Itzcoatl and Ahuitzotl.

Sioux - I changed the Native Americans to the Sioux and I added Crazy Horse.

Israel - I put Israel in my mod and they have Joshua, David, Solomon and Ben-Gurion, I know it may not be historically accurate to lump modern Israel with the ancient Israelites, but I didn't want two Israeli civs.

Vietnam - I added Vietnam, they have the Trung Sisters (by Ekmek, a realy good LH with two models in it) and Ho Chi Minh.

Polynesia - I added this civ to my mod, they have Kamehmeha I and Salamasina.

Iroquois - this is another new civ, they have Logan and Hiawatha.

Korea - I gave them Kim Jong-il (because its a good LH) and Sejong.

Inca - I gave them Pachacuti.

Greece - This was a bit difficult, but I gave them Pyrrhus of Epirus and Cleomenes I of Sparta.

Byzantium - I gave them Constantine and Basil II.

Khmer - I gave them Pol Pot, becasue I liked the LH.

Maya - I gave them Smoke Jaguar and Lady Xoc.

Carthage - I added Dido, but am thinking of adding Hasbrubal or Hamlicar Barca too.

If there are any civs I missed let me know. What do you guys think?

 

[Otaku-sama]

Wow...That's quite a list. Where can I go see this mod you're making?

 

[The Capo]

This is a LINK TO MY MOD'S THREAD. It is still in planning stages because I am making a new one for 3.19, so the first two thirds of the thread is about the old mod and the modules I made for it. But towards the end (probably the last third or so of the pages) is for the new mod. Suggestions and comments are always welcome and I am going to put out a new playtest in around two weeks, and we always need more playtesters.

 

[mechaerik]

While that would be interesting, it does not happen under normal settings. Civ will only repeat leaders if there are no other valid choices. So you'd have to have 3 Romes and 2 Byzantines in LoR before that happened. And the same thing will happen in standard BtS if you have multiple instances of the same civ.

Playing unrestricted leaders once, way back (when I first got BtS), I got a game where there were 2 alexanders, one for Babylonia and another for some other country. Got confusing as hell when people asked me to stop trading with one of them.

 

[AlphaShard]

The reason I think William the Conquer should be in for England, or why I suggested him, is the same reason Washington is in for USA. He founded a country, not just taking it over. When Gangis, Alexander, Napoleon, etc conquered their lands and other countries they stayed their respective countries. William didn't become an extension of the Vikings or any other country, he became English.

 

[kochman]

The reason I think William the Conquer should be in for England, or why I suggested him, is the same reason Washington is in for USA. He founded a country, not just taking it over. When Gangis, Alexander, Napoleon, etc conquered their lands and other countries they stayed their respective countries. William didn't become an extension of the Vikings or any other country, he became English.

I hear what you mean. The difference is Washington was born in America, etc.

Anyhow, regarding William... he was a Norman anyhow, not a viking. They had settled and somewhat assimilated/made their own culture. Kind of different.
I would say it's better to create a Norman Civ than make him an English leader.
He didn't really become English, anyhow. He continued to speak French, etc. Just as the Normans in Sicily. I understand what you mean though, the impact on England was obviously important, and once he became ruler, his allegiance was to his empire in England, but he was a Norman leader, and extension of the Normans.

 

[Koning]

As a leaderhead-maker, I find this thread pretty interesting. I am working on a bunch of new leaders right now. But I'll make some comments on some of the civs discussed already here:
..
If there are any civs I missed let me know. What do you guys think?

Really impressive! You made leaderheads for all the leaders I wished where in!

Love to do:

Extra leaders for one-leader civs:
Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar II
Greatest ruler of the Second Babylonian Empire (Hammurabi ruled the first, some 1000 years earlier)
Byzantines: Basil II
Ruled some 5 centuries after Justinian, when the Byzantines where mighty again. Nicknamed "the Bulgar-slayer"
Spain: Philip II
Ruled Spain at the height of its power in the 16th century. Brutally exploited the native Americans, surpressed the Dutch and non-catholics in general.
Japan: Meiji
Often mentioned. Representative for the post-isolationist Japan that became a world power
Arabia: Harun Al-Rashid
Greatly admired caliph in the late 8th century, who ruled the vast Arabian empire
Incas: Pachachuti
Greatest of the Inca's, HE conquered most of the Incan empire. No idea why they chose Huayna Capac.
Aztek: Ahuitzotl
Same story. But Montezuma is just more famous
Ethiopia: Menelik II
Ensured Ethiopia remained the only real independant African country in the 19th/early 20th century. Kicked out the Italians twice.

New leaders for two leaders civs I'd like to see:
China: Tai Zong
Rome: Constantine the Great
India: Akbar the Great
Germany: Hitler (YES!)

 

[Koning]

Capo, I'm looking forward to try masny of them! Will they all appear in your leaderhead gallery?

 

[mechaerik]

Not all of them are his, those are the leaders in his mod. For example, I made Menelik II, Ekmek made Meiji and a few othere.

 

[Roundman]

Germany's successful economic redevelopment was due to Hjalmar Schacht, not Hitler. Schacht was opposed to Hitler, and Hitler soon replaced him to the detriment of the German economy. Stalin was as bad as Hitler morally, but he was a much more effective administrator and thus deserving of being in the game.

If you really wanted to add another German leader to the game (I don't as they already have two good ones,) Frederick William I would be a really good choice.

If you're going to add another German, then why not add a non-Prussian German leader? Maybe Barbarossa. If you want to add a Female, then what about Maria Theresa?

 

[Roundman]

RE: Hitler

I'm not a fan of having Hitler in the game (due to possible abuse by people who want a way to simulate their twisted fantasies that shouldn't be entertained)...

I don't see this as a legitimate concern, IMO.

There are plenty of other bloody tyrants included in this game through whom crazies can simulate their "twisted fantasies." You could argue that the very nature of the game allows people to live out their twisted fantasies- after all, conquering and subjugating other civilizations is a main aspect of the game. Having a crazed Neonazi use a Hitler-lead Germany to conquer a Jewish nation in this game seems no better or worse than having a crazed Stalinist use Stalin to conquer neighboring countries, or having any sort of bigot conquering a civilization because of its racial or religious nature.

There are good reasons for not including Hitler that have nothing with people's secret desires. First and foremost, Hitler ended up being Germany's worst leader ever. His reign ended with Germany being completely conquered, divided, and ruled over by its enemies; losing a large portion of its territory (Silesia, East Prussia, Sudetenland) and having its people ethnically cleansed out those areas where they had lived for centuries; having another major component of the nation (Austria) completely disavow its German identity; and having its own people (not to mention the rest of the world) to basically despise their nation and culture. This is all on top of alienating and slaughtering millions of his own citizens, including some of its brightest minds.

Other evil leaders such as Stalin and Mao have been included largely because, despite their crimes, they didn't utterly destroy their own country. Hitler did. That's why it wouldn't make sense to include him as a leader.

The second reason is that German history stretches back thousands of years. There are plenty of leaders to choose from if they would decide to add another German leader. It would be nice to introduce other German leaders who Americans might not know of.

 

[Otaku-sama]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO MORE HITLER TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, sign me up for that playtest!

 

[mechaerik]

Unfortunately, that won't stop them.... Pandora's box has been opened, and the cake is a lie.

 

[Roundman]

Unfortunately, that won't stop them.... Pandora's box has been opened, and the cake is a lie.

That's the last I'll post on the topic.

I just thought that it was ironic that people were trying to justify his non-inclusion on the grounds that they don't want to support genocidal fantasies in a game that's completely based around ideas of blood & soil, conquest of living space, and clash of monolithic civilizations. That oft-restated irony irritated me enough that I wanted to say my piece about it. There are far better and more logically consistent reasons for not including Hitler in Civ 4, and I believe that I've laid some of them out.

 

[The Capo]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO MORE HITLER TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, sign me up for that playtest!

You are lucky I happened to check this thread again. If you want to playtest my mod you'll have to either post in my thread (which is not the way I like to do it, but at least I'll have your name) or you can PM me (which is MUCH better/easier for me). I rarely check the General Discussion threads unless I'm DLing something (which I am doing now) or uploading something.

 

[Fei Kelei]

Tecumseh of Native America would have been a perfect fit for the unused Organized/Protective trait combo.