New Screenies @ GamingHorizon

Louis XXIV said:
The disadvantage to roading every square is the fact that it takes time for little benefit. It would force players to prioritize roads that go somewhere before random roading. I don't think roading every square is as bad a thing as some people believe.

definitely it is a minor problem but making railroading more expensive could bring more strategic thinking and more fun in the game, i.e. defending or occupying strategic points (there are none when every square is RRed so that units can simply pass by enemy units)
 
Louis XXIV said:
The disadvantage to roading every square is the fact that it takes time for little benefit. It would force players to prioritize roads that go somewhere before random roading. I don't think roading every square is as bad a thing as some people believe.

Well I assume people already do that. :) The first thing I do is connect my cities with roads before I start actually tiling the rest of the city tiles. Some people, like me for instance, just don't like the look of roads on every tile regardless of the gameplay implications, it's just a personal preference and what you think the abstraction "roading a tile" actually represents. I think they made a good choice by removing the commerce benefit, now players can do whatever they like, if you want roads on every tile, do it, if you don't, you're not forced to now.
 
So far we have for the missionary colours:

Buddhist-- Red and Saffron
Hindu--Bronze
Taoist-- Blue and white


Can anyone guess what colours will be appropriate for other missionaries, unless you already know please tell me!!?

I'm guessing...

Confucian--green
Jew--black
Christian--brown
Muslim--white
 
I wonder if you can support more than 1 religion within your country in Civ4. The interesting thing is that in places like China, Korea, and Japan which have been in past Civ games, you will see both Confucianism and Buddhism being a major influences, with many people being both Buddhist and Confucian at the same time. And the strange thing that they Firaxis decided to do is make Confucianism a religion as opposed to a governmental ideology, which better fits its class because it really doesn't have much cosmology to it like Buddhism does.
 
I wonder if not only will the buildings in the cities change to reflect different levels of technological prowess, but will they also be different for the different cultural groups as we've seen in the past games? So far they all look exactly the same, which blows.

About religions...in asia confucianism, daoism, and buddhism coexist very peacefully, and even compliment each other very well, as they're not mutually exclusive as christianity is. And no one get all hopped up here, I'm not saying that with venom in my words or anything, but the simple fact of the matter is you can't be christian and also follow another faith, at least not orthodox christianity. That's certainly not the case with the east asian faiths. But since we already know religions will all behave in the same way, i.e., one modeled after christianity with different names, its naturally going to mean that you can only be buddhist, or daoist, or confucian, even though 2 of those were born in China, and all three coexisted mostly peacefully for thousands of years.
 
TVA22 said:
I wonder if not only will the buildings in the cities change to reflect different levels of technological prowess, but will they also be different for the different cultural groups as we've seen in the past games? So far they all look exactly the same, which blows.

About religions...in asia confucianism, daoism, and buddhism coexist very peacefully, and even compliment each other very well, as they're not mutually exclusive as christianity is. And no one get all hopped up here, I'm not saying that with venom in my words or anything, but the simple fact of the matter is you can't be christian and also follow another faith, at least not orthodox christianity. That's certainly not the case with the east asian faiths. But since we already know religions will all behave in the same way, i.e., one modeled after christianity with different names, its naturally going to mean that you can only be buddhist, or daoist, or confucian, even though 2 of those were born in China, and all three coexisted mostly peacefully for thousands of years.

I wonder how difficult will it be to switch religion or convert enemy cities to different religion. How many turns will it take to completely convert a city? Will there be any riots? Will you have to destroy old temples or shrines and build new ones?
 
I'm not too worried about all the religions having 'missionaries' in the Civ context. Let's face it, the game has more of a Machiavaelian (sp?) tilt than real life. If you're playing the game as a Buddhist nation, are you going to set up mountaintop monastaries and say 'oooohhhhmmmm' over and over at your computer desk, or, for the sake of power, are you going to spread the religion to the corners of the map? I think the necessary game parameters and the players' focus on winning will distort the game religions away from reality no matter what the designers do. If you want total realism, give up civ and join the religion!

@TVA22: Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't anyone be a buddhist, even Christians? As I understood it, it is more of a psychological system than a religion. Buddhism doesn't technically affirm or deny the existence of the supernatural, focusing instead on the individual. At least, I think so... Anyway, even if that's completely true, evangelicals tend to feel threatened by Buddhism anyway, and would probably just as soon bring it to an end along with every 'other' relgion. Then again, evangelicals don't represent the final and only expression of Christianity anyway... more the political arm of it these days... etc etc etc...

Anyway, judging from what I've seen so far, CivIV looks awesome to me.
 
No, you can't be a Buddhist and a Christian because Buddhists deny the existence of a creator god or any omnipotent god like that who can make and break you by devine intervention. You life is your own and the ultimate law of the universe is cause and effect, aka karma. And so thats why many people who are Confucian are also Buddhist because the share many similar ethics and thoughts and views about the world running on so called "natural way," for lack of a better translation. The main thing is that Confucianism covers most of the social structure, politics, and state related matters of life while at the same time, Buddhism covers the cosmos and the more spiritual side of life. So the interesting thing is, is Firaxis aware of this coexistence, and will it be something you can acheive in nations like China, Japan, and if Firaxis ever decides to put them in, Korea and Vietnam.

Buddhism is not a psychology alone. It has an explanation for the cosmos that is in direct contradiction with just about 99% of what Christianity, or any other Abrahamic Mosaic, or god believing religion is fundamentally about.

Also, I doubt that Buddhist nations really will be obscessed with retreating into the mountains. As you may know, nations where Buddhism was the national religion, like China, still had a pretty bloody history. The rulers may believe in the religion, but it certainly does not mean they are good practioners of the religion in spite of that.
 
just a point of information.....i do believe confucianism is not a religion at all but rather part of east-asian culture and can coexist with any religion ie. you can be a "confucian" and a christian at the same time with no conflict of interest
 
I rather find it hard to be Confucian and Christian at the same time. While MOST world religions meet in terms of ethics in the mundane world, their views of WHY those ethics exist are vastly different. Confucianism is built on a the thought that the absolute law of the universe is still the natural law, and that there is no real god, and that there being a natural law, we have to tap into it in such a way to live a harmonious life and create a harmonious society.

This is say much different from a deontological thought of Christian, and Abrahamic Mosaic thinking where morality is demanded by a god, and ours is not to reason why, but to follow, or else.

The rule of thou shall not kill is something that is behind every religion. But the issue is that Buddhists and Confucians see it differently than Christians do. And of course, the ethic is only one of many realms a philosophy covers. Confucianism also is a merit based system much like Buddhism, in which you get what you deserve, and ignorance is lifted only through education and self development. Those who are meritorious can enjoy the harmony and peace of of life they create for themselves, while those who live decadent lives have to suffer the consequences of their own doing.

It is say much different from the various thoughts of predetermination, or faith and faith alone of protestantism, or belief conbined with good works and such in Catholic Christians, where there is a cornerstone belief first in a devine being who dictates the rules of the universe. Again, we're comparing a deontological system vs a virtue system, which have conflicting rationales to the same conclusion, not to mention fundamentally different beliefs about how the universe works.

Simply put, the mindset and rationale of a true Confucian, is not that of a Christian. I believe them to be mutually exclusive, despite all arguments Mateo Ricci might try to put out.
 
StrainX said:
I wonder if you can support more than 1 religion within your country in Civ4.

I think so. This may cause you problems if some people in your country do not believe the state religion.
 
In real life, religions are full of holes. You may claim to be a Christian, yet disregard any number of precepts in the Bible, e.g. not eating pork, or interpret the precepts differently (thou shalt not kill becomes thou shalt not murder, and consequently war doesn't not constitute murder ... it'd be interesting to see if Civ4 Christian nations have any war penalties or if it's King Richards Crusades all the way and if Islam handles jihad as 'struggle' or as 'holy war'), so it's not totally inconceivable that some adherents would bend their rules to be mutually acceptable to one or more religions, even if the "rules" are basically antithetical..

As for Confucianism and Taoism being religions, if you require a one true anthropomorphic god, the no, if you view religion as guiding principles in life, then yes. As it stands, it's also full of holes as you can easily tack on a 'Celestial Emperor' to either Confucianism or Taoism or both, because I think the Confucian classics and I-ching are mostly silent or at least ambiguious on that matter.

As for color, would think the developer would let the color of the missionary denote the nationality and let the regalia denote the religion.
 
I just posted this on a different thread, about my own personal experience with Confucianism, which, while still limited is probably still more extensive than most other people on this site. Not to sound arrogant, but I doubt the majority of people on this site have the sort of travel experience I do. I'm going to do a copy and paste, because I'm too lazy to type it all over:
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I've been to a Confucian temple in Taipei, Taiwan, when I studied abroad there. They celebrate the birthday of confucious like something in between independence day and christmas in the United States. While there I took a class about religions, and the teacher had us read this primary source in which jesuits back in China a long time ago whitnessed animal sacrifices at a confucian altar.

The reason people say confucianism is not a religion, is unfortunately because of a jesuit lie that caught on. Allow me to explain....
Confucianism was inseparable from Chinese back when European missionaries first started to arrive. European missionaries would just run into a brick wall whenever they'd try to tell Chinese that in order to convert to christianity they had to give up confucian practices, which by the way is where ancestor *worship* (not really worship in the western, christian sense, but close enough for arguments sake I guess) came from, as well as lots of other things. These jesuits wrote back to their superiors, and eventually some guy (can't remember the name anymore, sorry) started writing the pope for permission to allow them to continue these practices, otherwise they figured they'd never get any converts. The pope was adament about no other religious practices in addition to christianity..he said chinese had to accept christianity entirely, and there was no other way about it. He of course didn't know how pervasive confucianism was(is) in China, and was trying to label China based upon European standards of the day. So the jesuits started lying to their superiors back in Europe, misrepresenting the facts about confucianism in a deliberate attempt to make it seem more like a 'codified set of values,' and not a religion.

The teacher even told us that he'd personally read an entry from the journal of a jesuit missionary from several hundred years ago in which sentences and words about religious practices of confucianism had a line drawn through them, and official reproductions of the diary had those portions removed completely, when they were presented to important people in the christian bureaucracy back in Europe.

Due to the fact that few people have been to Asia to see this religion in action, and most of us (me included) have had History classes taught by people trained in European traditions, this misrepresentation has carried down to the present day, but is nonetheless false.
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@Jove:
I think you misunderstood what I meant. Anyone can be a buddhist, thats why so many people in China and Taiwan follow the "3 teachings" --buddhism, daoism, and confucianism. These three religions have some overlap, and compliment each other well in the grey areas. That said, From a christian standpoint, you can't believe in anything else, or you're violating the "thou shalt not worship any other God" and false idols one(s). Needless to say it's been a long time since confirmation for me... But While the buddhists would have no problem with you being both buddhist and christian, the christian side makes christianity and anything else mutually exclusive. Hope that's clear.

By the way, I'm religiously and politically agnostic, so if anyone thinks I'm trying to point a condemning finger, I'm not, I'm just telling it how I think it is.
 
TVA22, you're actually dreadfully incorrect about anyone can be a Buddhist and a Christian at the same time. As I mentioned above, Buddhism and Christianity contradict on 99% of their fundamental beliefs. It is also stated quite clearly by the Buddha, that one who takes refuge in the path of the Buddha, shall adopt no other religion. The Buddha quite clearly and emphatically says there is NO CREATOR GOD. No one determines whether you go to hell, come to earth, or go to heaven in your susequent lives but the merit or dismerit of your own actions drawing you to those various places. Last time I checked, you have to believe in a personal, creator god to be a Christian.

However, I do agree with you that Confucianism is NOT a religion. It is however, a philosophy, and state ideology that encompasses most of social life, and like Buddhism, does prescribe by the concept of natural law as the fundamental driving force of the universe. It is written in many Confucian texts, and quite emphatically by the Duke of Zhou, that whether you are to rise or perish in this world is, like in Buddhism, decided by your virtue and your merit. The "heavens" is not a sentient thing, and is simply a term for natural law in Confucianism, and the Duke of Zhou makes it quite clear that "heaven" makes no preference or bias, but it is simply natural that those who are virtuous will create around them a harmonious situation, while those who are not, will suffer the results of the misdeeds. The last time I checked, to be a Christian, you have to believe that God is sentient, omnipotent, makes the decisions and sets the rules in this universe, and that he defines what is good and bad, and has a terrible bias against evil people and those who don't believe in him that he personally sends them to hell. This of course not the insentient natural law of Confucianism.

To make the point even more clear about how Confucianism and Buddhism are incompatible with Christianity, you should see that in history, Chinese, Vietnames, Korean, and Japanese rulers have sent hundreds of thousands of Christian converts to the boiling pots, to crucification, to the choping block, or to the torture chamber simply because they know there is a FUNDAMENTAL disagreement between Buddhism and Confucianism against Christianity that would upset Asian society at its roots. Buddhists and Confucians among the lay people actively jeered, oppressed, and killed Chrisitian converts because they STRONGLY felt that Christianity is simply a false and irrational belief that does not explain the universe correctly. Not necessarily the best solution to removing Christianity from Asia although it succeeded particularly in Japan, but it gives you a sense of that incompatability.
 
1) I loathe these little pissing contests; I will tell you I've personally traveled extensively throughout Asia, especially China, since I was about 15 years old. The people there follow what they call the "3 teachings," a combination of Confucianism, Daoism, and BUDDHISM. I've been to temples of all 3, and spoken with buddhist monks and nuns in Taiwan. I've also taken classes specifically about Chinese religions, one of them taught by one of the preeminant American scholars on the subject. With all due respect, I am not wrong about this.

2) Confucianism IS a religion, read my post again, you obviously didn't.

3) The reason Christians were sent to their deaths in most of the cases you're talking about is NOT because there is a fundamental conflict with asian society (which in fact there is, it conflicts with confucian practices of venerating your ancestors; what we call ancestor worship), but rather because in all China and Japan at least, the Emperor was considered divine, or at least appointed by the devine, in Japan, and China, respectively. The christians were killed for political reasons, not theological ones--it was believed the peasants would become more loyal to the pope and foriegn christian countries, and therefore could threaten the hold on power of the royalty in Asia.

As I say, I've studied this fairly extensively, and I've read documents in their original Chinese about the 3 teachings, and I've had lots of intricate discussions with my friends, mostly from Taiwan, who follow the same. Good day.

EDIT: In your first sentence you say 'you're dreadfully incorrect that anyone can be a buddhist and a christian' If anything I said that you CAN'T have it that way. I just said it's because of the attitude of Christianity that makes it that way. Perhaps you're thinking of Theravada buddhism? Only practiced in Sri Lanka and a couple of other tiny spots today? Mahayana Buddhism is the one they practice everywhere else, and this is the one I'm talking about. It's much more open than the more traditional one.
 
Perhaps you've studied and talked to some people, but don't forget, you're not the only one here who's studied it - and taking a couple classes is not the same as being a practioner either. I hate the pissing contest as well, but look, I've studied the San jiao since birth because I am a practioner, and not only that, I did extensive research on it in college, and read the dharma, and the classics on a daily basis. I've studied my history, and I know what I'm talking about, so consider yourself as debating with someone who's studied at least what you've studied.

And do not be mistaken, I am not talking about Theravada Buddhism, I'm talking about all of Buddhism. And when the Buddha clearly says that there is no creator god, its hard to make an argument that you can be a Buddhist and a Christian at the same time. Anyone who's making that argument is not a following the Buddha's obvious teachings. Mahayana Buddhists DO NOT brush aside the Buddha's teachings to be "open." Mahayana Buddhism is more open only in that it accepts discourse and teachings from patriarchs and other masters, but if you read them, in the end, every master says the same thing as the Buddha, but just with a different way of talking. And so the masters all say the same thing, "THERE IS NO CREATOR GOD." Some like my own master, will even make the point that "God is an inferior concept to being a Buddha. God is still afflicted with anger, bias, hate, and love. No buddhas are afflicted with this suffering." Now, you can say that Buddhists are TOLERANT of Christians, but a FUNDAMENTAL disagreement still exists in such a way that you CANNOT be a Christian and call yourself a true Buddhist at the same time and vice versa. Maybe you can be a hippie and pretend to be a Buddhist and Christian at the same time, but thats just their own distortion of the religions. It just doesn't get any more clear than the Buddha saying "THERE IS NO CREATOR GOD." I hope that should be the end of that. Should it be taken literally ? Yeah I think the Buddha is pretty clear about it because Buddhism was kind of a radical break from Hinduism based on that major aspect alone (among many others).

Historically, its the Mahayana Buddhists lay "practioners" and believers who did most of the killing of Christians by the way.

Ok, maybe I misunderstood your quoting there. Well, I don't know what your definition of religion is, but I don't know if ancestor worship alone is enough to do it, particularly when Confucian tradition at best makes only vague mention about the concept of an afterlife. If you take any time to read the classics, the emphasis of Confucianism is POLITICS and state matters. It does talk about things all the way down to daily life of an individual, but all things are matters of state. And in regards to ancestors ? Well, its better to serve your parents in life than in the afterlife. So that when Christians were being killed all throughout East Asia, it is indeed a political reason. Remember that the concept of the Emperor in East Asia everywhere except for Japan, is that the Emperor is thought to be the ultimate example of morality. And people swear their loyalty to him because of that, and that they also need to follow his moral example in order to live harmonious lives. Granted that does not always happen, and hence Emperors loose the "Heaven's Mandate" and are overthrown. However, Confucianism, particularly stated in Mencius, strongly advocates the disposal of all those who lead people to believe in the wrong things that are not in accord to the harmonious aspect of the natural way (the true Dao). Given this, since there is a fundamental disagreement between Confucianism, which is a STATE IDEOLOGY, and Christianity, there is good reason to eliminate Christians. In Japan, the Emperor is part of the Shinto religion, but during this period, its the Shogun who is the counter part of the Chinese emperor and rules by the Mandate of Heaven. And finally, you are mistaken if the Emperor is considered devine. He is not devine except in Japan, where in the end, he's just a puppet. He is not appointed by any sentient devine being either. Remember, the concept of the natural way and heaven in Confucianism is that they represent the natural law of the universe, and it is considered only natural that those with the strongest moral and virtue rise to the top and mantain their power by uniting and harmonizing the people. This is NOT the counter part of the Christian thought of kingship and "devine right."

Read the primary sources during this time period. There is no end discourses all the fundamental disagreements. The Tokugawa shogunate for example, had Zen masters like Suzuki Shosan write LONG discourses on all the conflicts between Buddhism, Confucianism and Christianity, and why Christianity is a false belief, and why it should be eliminated. Similar stuff can be found throughout East Asia.

Finally, Confucianism concentrates on the world here today. It does not offer cosmology like other religions. Ancestor worship is not literal, its more ritual that is meant to remind you of the gratitude you need to have for your ancestors so that hopefully in life you will have gratitude towards your parents, and so will your children for you. The reason why Buddhism fit well into East Asia is because they are both founded off similar fundamental concepts, namely, revolving around the concept of natural law. And in that Buddhism filled the void of a religion dealing with the cosmos in East Asian life while speaking of mundane life in much the same way that Confucianism does. I still believe that in the end, religions were meant to describe the cosmos, and Confucianism does not do that, and is more of a state ideology even though it is a very spiritual philosophy.
 
I'm sorry to say this, but this could go down as the worst looking game of all time in my own personal opinion of course. I'd prefer Civ 1 graphics to this nonsense. Ugly, ugly, ugly.
 
StrainX said:
To make the point even more clear about how Confucianism and Buddhism are incompatible with Christianity, you should see that in history, Chinese, Vietnames, Korean, and Japanese rulers have sent hundreds of thousands of Christian converts to the boiling pots, to crucification, to the choping block, or to the torture chamber simply because they know there is a FUNDAMENTAL disagreement between Buddhism and Confucianism against Christianity that would upset Asian society at its roots. Buddhists and Confucians among the lay people actively jeered, oppressed, and killed Chrisitian converts because they STRONGLY felt that Christianity is simply a false and irrational belief that does not explain the universe correctly. Not necessarily the best solution to removing Christianity from Asia although it succeeded particularly in Japan, but it gives you a sense of that incompatability.

I don't see how you can offer religious persecutions as evidence that one or more religions are intrinsically incompatible. I would say that China has had far more Buddhist persecutions than Christian persecutions, yet you claim no qualms about Confucianism and Buddhism being compatitible. There have been plenty of religious persecutions in Northern Ireland and Europe as a whole, yet I doubt you would say that Catholicism and Protestantism are so mutually exclusive that a child of a Catholic and Protestant could not simply consider his religion as Christian.

China wasn't alone in persecuting Christians, the Romans also thought they were scammers and nor were Christians (or at least those claiming to be Christian) innocent of persecuting Jews, Muslims or any number other religions or "non-religions", perhaps under the guise of religious conflict but in reality for resources, for political power or for being in the wrong club. The idea that there is only 'one religion per person' is more likely from fundamentalists' desire to not have other religions contaminating their beliefs than any source of irreconcilable conflict in religious texts. Some Christians (e.g. Unitarians) aren't so exclusive. By the way, I haven't checked myself, but apparently there seems to be a yahoo group for Christian Buddhists. As far as being hippie goes, as I understand it, all you need to be a Christian is to believe Jesus is the Son of God and your Saviour and to be Muslim, for example, "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet" but I never hear the Buddhist passcode for joining the club as being "There is no creator God", perhaps it is just a Mahayana thing and lay people who normally aren't fundamentalists, aren't likely to sweat the details, hippie or not, but pick and choose what they are willing to live with (or at least what they are forced upon since childhood). At any rate, Buddhism does not deny the existence of supernatural beings, just the absence of a creator supernatural being.

It could be said that Confucianism does offer a cosmoslogy, except that does not include a detailed fabricated celestial component and as you say, only deals with tangible matters (as so, the Confucian cosmos primarily only involves the earth proper) , except for not calling it a cosmology. I also find it interesting that while you say Confucianism is not a religion, deals primarily with state affairs (which I disagree) and has an absent cosmology, that you can claim that there is a "FUNDAMENTAL disagreement between [Buddhism and] Confucianism against Christianity", when Christianity is a religion, does not primarily deal with state affairs and does have a cosmology, yet Buddhism, in those three respects identical, is fully compatible.
 
It seems we do indeed have different definitions of religion, and I must say you're the first person I've ever met in my ENTIRE life who practices the san jiao, and claims one of them isn't a religion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about whether or not it would be the christians or the buddhists saying 'you can't have it both ways.' I've got academic experience with the san jiao, but have never been a practitioner of it. I must say that at least in my experience, your views regarding them seem quite unique.

For the record, Mahayana Buddhism ALWAYS in my experience, and according to EVERYONE I've ever talked to is more austere than Theravada, which is generally much more compassionate, less exclusive, and preaches universal kindness, acceptance, and eventual salvation. That's what the boddhisattvas are all about. So I do think there's a significant distinction there between Mahayana and Theravada with regards to how accepting they are of different modes of thought. At the very least, you must recognize Theravada buddhism as traditional with comparison to Mahayana, which has been changed, and adapted extensively through the centuries. Otherwise it wouldn't have caught on in so many places! The very reason Mahayana buddhism--the dominant sect of buddhism--is so huge with respect to Theravada is because it IS so compatable with other ways of dealing with spirituality.

Here's a picture I took for all to see of the main confucian temple in Taipei, in the moments before ceremonies began for the birthday of the man...Happy 2000...something master Kong!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/totaiwanandbackagain1/CIMG0690.jpg

StrainX, Finally, I respect your thoughts, if you really are a practitioner, then I'll give you props for that, and back down. We'll agree to disagree on some things I guess. Hope to see you on multiplayer someday! :goodjob:
 
Supernatural beings or whatever, the denial of a personal, creator god is FUNDAMENTAL to being truly a Buddhist. Supernatural beings in Buddhism, are nothing but other forms of reincarnation, and have no magical influence over the physical world. In the end, becoming a buddha is becoming the ultimate state of being. If you know your history, you will find that the main struggle between Buddhism and Hinduism in terms of philosophy when Buddhism came into the being was the radical concept of denying the existence of personal gods, creator gods, and gods that can magically influence the world. And based off of that is a very important concept of natural cause and effect, aka kharma, which explains why things happen to you the way they do, and why you're born the way you are. Kharma in Buddhism is much different from the Vedic Hindu belief in that it is thought as well as action, althought thought is more important, that is the root of all kharma, as opposed to action alone.

And finally, getting to reason why Buddhism exists as a religion in the first place ? It is so that people can learn a pathway that individual themselves can mold themselves and practice to reduce suffering at its roots, ie eliminating causes of suffering, broadly categorized as hate, anger, attachments and ignorance of the way the universe works. Therefore, I would argue that in denying a creator and a personal god, is quite important to being a Buddhist. To acheive that enlightenment, you can't be relying on a personal god who intervenes to be the one who decided where you were born, why you are the way you are, and determine where you will go after death. Its quite important to deny a creator god in Buddhism, because its the foundation of everything else in the religion for crying out loud, from the philosophy all the way up to why you go shave your head, retreat into the mountains and meditate all day.

If you want to be a so called Christian Buddhist, you have to first of all believe in God, and Jesus Christ and the resurrection and that in believing in him, you will be saved and go to heaven. Then on the otherside, I'm not quite sure how that can fit with there is no creator god, and that your own actions are the only thing that determine what will happen to you. Again, I can't come to see how the 2 religions have any kind of reconcillation unless you decide to misconstrue it like some hippie era dude to your own liking. Then it really becomes some alternative religion that is neither Christianity nor Buddhism - it may have resemblance, but it really isn't either. But you might be interested to know that Hindus simply absorb Christianity into themselves since they can just make Jesus another avatar of their gods.

Abrahamic Mosaic religions all believe in the same god, however, they all believe in different profits, messiahs, and such. The thing is that they can't decide on which one of them is the true one, and what is the correct way to worship God. Many of the fundamentals between them are shared in the Old Testament. The main problem is the texts that come afterwards. And for them, the way each religion's texts are written, they set themselves up to deny and condemn any other way of worshipping God. The oppression of various sects of protestantism and Catholism was considered by the intellects of the time, and the rulers to be of a similar idea, that it wrong to worship God any other way than the way that they believe. My personal bias is that all of this stuff is totally irrational to start with, but to those irrational individuals its reason enough. Again, the bottom line is that their fundamental difference is that it is evil to worship God any other way than their own way.

On the issue of Buddhist oppression in China during various parts of Chinese history, such is true, but it isn't nearly as dramatic and outrightly violent as culling hundreds of thousands of Christians at once and chopping off all their heads. Much of the oppression of Buddhism in China was pretty short lived, and occured when the court becomes overly influenced by power seeking Daoists, or Confucians who are skeptical of Buddhism because it comes from abroad. If you read the primary sources, many of the Confucian intellects who advocated shutting Buddhism down were really ignorant of the religion as a whole, often making incorrect statements about the teachings, or speculating unreasonable doom and gloom in the case that everyone shaves their heads and retreat into the mountains. Much of the oppression itself was a matter of closing temples, and forcing monks and nuns to return to lay life. In the long run, Buddhism has still caught on in Chinese Middle ages, and is very comparable to the stregnth of Christianity in European middle ages.

And the main reason why Buddhism and Confucianism work together is in the details. To say that Christianity is a cosmos related religion that does not deal with state, and hence it doesn't disturb Confucianism's turf, and therefore it should not contradict is naive. The details is that Buddhism and Confucianism appeal to a SIMILAR CONCEPT of "natural law" off of which ALL OTHER parts of their respective philosophies are derived. Therefore, much of Confucianism and Buddhism come to the same conclusions and reasoning for morality of the mundane world. Buddhism, does not go on to apply this to the state. Confucianism does go on to apply this to the state. Confucianism does not go on to apply this to the afterlife, while Buddhism goes on to explain the afterlife, the cosmos, etc. Therefore, the reason why you can be a Buddhist and a Confucian at the same time, is that in being both, you've covered all your bases. The layman's lifestyle does not change, if not, the humaneness and other virtues are reinforced because now you have 2 philosophies telling you to do the same thing. In terms of government, the Emperor's role is to promote morals, virtues, learning, and forge harmony in his country. Many of China's emperors became Buddhists, because not only does it imply that he should be humane and continue doing the good things he is supposed to be doing (not always performed by every emperor in history, but then thats why they get overthrown), but they too, like other people in China, now have something rational, that fills the void of the cosmos for them, and appeals to the similar fundamental concept of "natural law" with which to do that. Therefore, in a nutshell, Buddhism became quickly adopted in East Asia. In fact, many scholars will argue that it is because of Confucianism, that Buddhism has any place in the world today. If China rejected Buddhism, its migration would have died, and with Theravada Buddhism pretty much dying out in India, and being resticted to mostly Southeast Asia, that would have been that. Its kind of off topic, but Daoism also has many similarities to Buddhism. Although so called religious Daoism has a colorful history of its own conflicts with both Confucianism and Buddhism, but on the otherhand, philosophical Daoism, mostly based off the Dao De Jing, played much of a role in helping Buddhism catch hold. The Dao De Jing kind of talks about natural phenomenon in such a way as to give some wisdom into life, but I can't quite find a word to categorize it, but it has a sense of cosmology to it that isn't quite complete, but has been argued by some scholars to be a factor in helping Buddhism also catch on.

True, Buddhism is meant to be maleable in its appearance, in which it molds into the culture of where it goes. But what this means is that when Buddhism goes to China, the Buddha's statue is sculpted to look like a Chinese man, and he wears Chinese clothes, and the monks wear a variation of Chinese clothing, and the temples are built with Chinese architecture. Likewise, if Buddhism were to enter the west, this means that the Buddha will probaly look more Caucasian, the monks can wear a austere form of western clothing, and the temples will look like churches instead. It does not mean that you compromise teachings to enter a different culture.

So why is it that Christianity, while not overlapping Confucian turf is a problem ? Well, first of all, Christianity, as well as other theistic religions, appeal to the fact that there is a creator god who sets the rules in this universe and he interferes and determines who goes where, and what happens. There is a devine intervention, and one of your primary goals in life is to worship God, and follow his teachings. Implied in that is that kings and emperors need to spend time glorify God and spread his teachings, and that is because God made you emperor, and so you have that obligation. Also, it is implied that you follow God's rules because thats what he wants you to do, and you are not to reason why. If he tells you to kill your son and sacrifice him, that is what you do. Therefore, your faith in God is of utmost importance. So thats just the premise.

As many scholars comment, Confucianism is a highly rational philosophy that uses reasoning to come to the conclusions as to why everything on earth works the way it does and what those implications are for governmental application. First of all, Christianity does not appeal to "natural law." It appeals to divinity, and everything in it is based off of an omnipotent God. Theres nothing natural about it. Second, Christianity, requires an element of faith. Faith is outside the realm of rationality. Confucianism uses only rationality for come to conclusions. Yet another contradiction. Next, while Christianity doesnt directly dictate the state, its reasoning alone threatens how a Confucian society works. The harmony of a nation is acheived when the emperor and his grand secretariat of officials are the most exemplary moral figures in the nation, and that everyone follows their example. The emperor rises or stays in his position because his morality has naturally granted him the heaven's mandate, because the people love him like they love their parents because he is humane and treats them well. Emperors and grand officials like other people are not born perfect, they have to cultivate themselves to be the way the are. When you throw in a God, all of this goes haywire. An interventional God, chooses who goes where. It implies that Emperors were selected by God, as opposed to him naturally becoming or maintaining his position because he is well cultivated. It also implies that people are made the way they are, and self cultivation is an afterthought of your own inborn capacity given by God. It also means that God being the creator of moral rules, must be the most moral example there is, but when Confucians look at the Bible and the Old Testament and see things where God nuking cities out of spite, testing people by telling them to kill their son, among other examples in which Confucians do not look for in a moral character, then question marks start to appear in their minds - or when the hypothetical question of virtuous people like kings of antiquity, King Wen, King Wu, and the Duke of Zhou, or even Confucius himself who did not believe in a God all went to hell along with everyone's parents prior to this. Ancestor veneration doesn't mean much anymore because they're all in hell for being evil heathens. By this time, Confucian scholars are ready to go to war to enact what what Confucianism calls "justified punative wars" to root out a religion that is steeped in what they would consider irrationality, superstition, and falsehood. And if you read the primary sources, it did indeed happen exactly the way I told you, and all the officials in the court pushed for it with the exact same reasoning.

This is just in a nutshell why Confucianism isn't on the same frequency as Christianity. I can probably go on for days, but I think this is pretty darn good. The bottom line I think is still the reasoning. Its simply natural law vs. divinity from which all conflicts stem from. Its good that you're skeptical about it simply being history being a poor explanation, and so I felt it deserved one, but indeed, there is a deeper philsophical reason than it just being history.
 
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