New spin on specialists

[ShadowWarrior]

Aside from the specialists that we already have in existing Civ V game, I propose that we have unique specialists specific to each civilization.

Unique specialists are nurtured in particular city improvements. For example, a melee specialist is nurtured in a barrack. A drama specialist is nurtured in theater. A farming specialist is nurtured in granary.

How are specialists nurtured exactly? To nurture a specialist, we will have to click on the relevant city improvement. In the case of farming specialist, we have to click on a granary. Then, we will have to opt to nurture a farming specialist. Once we make that choice, two units of food from the city will go to cultivate this specialist each turn until this specialist is "manufactured". So lets say the city has an existing food supply of 10 units. If I nurture the farming specialist, the city will now have only 8 units of food supply until the farming specialist is manufactured. Once it is manufactured, the food supply goes back to 10 units unless I want to nurture another one.

These specialists will bring certain benefit that are unique to the civilization. The farming specialist might increase food yield of farms throughout the empire by one, for example. Or they might increase the food yield of worked camps throughout the empire by one.

If I want to nurture another farming specialist, the second farming specialist will add another food related benefit. Perhaps, all wheat resources in the empire will add one more food yield.

These unique specialists are accumulated at a rate of 2 units of food per turn. The first unique specialist needs to accumulate, lets say, a total of 30 food units, which means a wait time of 15 turns. The second specialist might require 50 food units which means 25 turns. However, I can expedite the process by purchasing it with gold or faith points. So I might decide to pay a certain amount of gold that may reduce the required food units by a certain amount.

Again, these specialists are unique to civilizations. China might have the farming specialist, and only China can have it. Egypt might have priest specialists. Greek might have scholar specialists. British might have merchant fleet specialists. Persia might have melee specialist. Korea might have ranged specialist. Ethiopia might have defense specialist. Germany might have military theorist specialist. The Japanese might have military medicine specialist. Americans may have public finance specialists.

Farming specialist is self explanatory. It gives benefits related to food production.

Priest specialists give bonuses related to faith points accumulation.

Scholar specialists may increase science researches or culture.

Merchant fleet specialists may increase cargo ship trade income, but not caravan trade income.

Melee specialist will give advantages to melee units, but not mobile or ranged units.

Defense specialists may allow a city to increase strength of wall, and allow the city to fortify two units instead of just one. It may also allow the city to attack twice instead of just once.

A military theorist specialist may allow certain amount of unit stacking on the same hex.

Military medicine specialists may be military doctors that allows its army to heal much faster.

Public finance specialists may decrease the cost of of road, army and city improvement maintenance significantly.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Frank327]

So then specialists would work essentially the same way as world wonders like the pyramids do? I think what makes specialists so unique is that they're flexible. You can quickly assign a few specialists to earn some extra gold or some extra science and take them off their specialized duty once you need something else again. I wouldn't want to lose that.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Instead of 'specializing the specialists', why not just increase the scope and variety of uses for specialists?

First, lets make an assumption: 'Specialists' represent those people in the Civilization that do not have to spend most of their time grubbing for food. It is the concentration of food resources that makes a city possible, after all, and it is the release of part of the population from direct food production that makes the city desirable, by the 'specialists' work in markets, temples, schools, etc.

So, by extension, almost EVERY structure/building in the city should have a Specialist Slot (or more than one). Filling those slots will give bonuses to the building's function, and we can even vary the type of specialist in the slot to give the building more than one function.
(I'll get back to this in a moment)

Furthermore, the number of unfilled Specialist Slots ('Jobs available') could be another factor in city growth: having enough food is, obviously, a basic requirement to keep people in the city, but very few moved to the city to eat: they moved there because there was paying work that would allow them to buy food, and have access to Other Things that they desired - and those desires got more and more complex as technology and civilization advanced.

We only need to 'adjust' one Specialist and add one new type of Specialist (which I've posted on before) : the Administrator. He fills slots in Palaces, Courthouses and such to increase the efficiency of everything else the city is doing. He also provides a break on the Wide Empire: without efficient administration (and communication technologies) cities too far away from the Center (Palace) simply don't provide any benefits in the form of taxes and production, and may eventually 'break away' as a city state or new civ.
The 'adjusted Specialist is the Missionary, who, along with the Inquisitor now becomes the 'end product' of a Priest Specialist.

In addition, among our current crop of Specialists we can get more and different results, and we can even make our Buildings more varied in their effects, without having to proliferate more building types.

For instance. In the first Religious Building (currently: Shrine) there would be a slot for a Priest Specialist. He would increase the effectiveness of your original Religious Policies, and increase the Happiness effects in the city ("He's keeping the Gods Off Our Backs' effect). But, one of the results of Writing (or similar) Technology would be the Temple School. If you decide to establish one of these, it takes the form, not of a new building, but a new Specialist Slot in the Religious Building. This slot can be filled by a Scientist Specialist, who increases your Science output in the city (and points towards a Great Scientist), and also should increase the 'spread' of your religion with Religious Texts.

You could also vary the current Specialists by Effectiveness. As technology and sophistication of civilization grows, there might be 3 'grades' or each Specialist. Examples:
‘Scientist’, or Science specialists could be:
.....Scribe
.....Scholar
.....Scientist
‘Engineer’, or Production Specialists:
.....Artisan
.....Craftsman
.....Engineer
‘Merchant’ or Gold Specialists:
.....Trader
.....Merchant
.....Entrepreneur
"Administrator' or Efficiency/anti-corruption Specialist:
.....Administrator
.....Bureaucrat
.....Minister

And, there could be 'National' Specialists , or Specialists associated with certain Technologies or Policies (Religious or Social) - Examples:
.....Bard – a specialist Musician who also adds value like a Scholar
.....Philosopher – a specialized Scholar, available earlier, with some Administrator or Social Policy affects
.....Mandarin, Commissar - Administrators unique to a particular Ideology, Social/Religious Policy or Civilization

All of this means that your original Market (with a 'Trader' in its specialist slot) will have a much more potent effect by, say, the late Medieval/early Renaissance Eras when it has a Merchant in the slot. 'Upgrades' to Buildings can take the form of new Buildings (the current model), or new Slots or 'Upgraded' Specialists in those slots. The result would be a much more Dynamic model of city improvements and structures and growth, which , IMHO, the game sorely needs.

 

[ShadowWarrior]

The game gets dull after a while because you are essentially doing the same thing all the time. What my goal really is is to use specialist as a mechanism to generate greater variety in this game. Otherwise, this whole game is an exercise in optimization, and very little creativity is involved.

Yeah, your idea of having specialist slots for each improvement is perfect. I like to add one point. The benefits of specialists needs to be A LOT MORE CREATIVE AND LESS GENERIC! This is important.

An example of generic benefit would be that adding a specialist to market improvement adds to gold coins.

An example of what I think is more creative benefits is this. Adding a specialist to market improvement will add two gold coins for each trade route originating from this city. If the city has three trade routes, then this market specialist just gave me 6 gold pieces. But that means that I have to concentrate my trade routes to this city instead of the others. I will then have to make a choice. Do I want to concentrate the trade routes all to this city? There might be specialist benefit in other cities that are also conditioned on trade routes. Is the opportunity cost justified?

Another example of specialist benefit that I think is more creative and less generic would be this. A city must have a palace specialist and a barrack specialist. This combination will give the benefit of reduced melee unit maintenance cost. This is also an interesting benefit because you are essentially spending 4 units of food on specialist in the capital city (only capital city has palace) to gain the benefit in reduction of melee unit maintenance cost. Is it worth it? You have to decide.

The first specialist in city wall improvement may get increased attack power from the wall. The second specialist in city wall improvement may give the city two attacks instead of just one. The third specialist may allow the city to fortify one more unit.

If this is programmable, and if we can design an AI that is smart enough to also take advantage of this, then this game will be a lot more interesting to play.

 

[killmeplease]

"Administrator' or Efficiency/anti-corruption Specialist:
.....Administrator
.....Bureaucrat
.....Minister

anti-corruption bureaucrat?

 

[killmeplease]

Boris Gudenuf, i like your ideas. I think most of the population should be specialists of some kind, at least after urbanization. Currently most ppl are farmers/miners and its strange and boring.

Among specialist effects there may be % change to yields, e.g. each enigneer provides +10% to production. This would lead to city specialization what civ5 lacks.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The game gets dull after a while because you are essentially doing the same thing all the time. What my goal really is is to use specialist as a mechanism to generate greater variety in this game. Otherwise, this whole game is an exercise in optimization, and very little creativity is involved.

Yeah, your idea of having specialist slots for each improvement is perfect. I like to add one point. The benefits of specialists needs to be A LOT MORE CREATIVE AND LESS GENERIC! This is important.

An example of generic benefit would be that adding a specialist to market improvement adds to gold coins.

An example of what I think is more creative benefits is this. Adding a specialist to market improvement will add two gold coins for each trade route originating from this city. If the city has three trade routes, then this market specialist just gave me 6 gold pieces. But that means that I have to concentrate my trade routes to this city instead of the others. I will then have to make a choice. Do I want to concentrate the trade routes all to this city? There might be specialist benefit in other cities that are also conditioned on trade routes. Is the opportunity cost justified?

Another example of specialist benefit that I think is more creative and less generic would be this. A city must have a palace specialist and a barrack specialist. This combination will give the benefit of reduced melee unit maintenance cost. This is also an interesting benefit because you are essentially spending 4 units of food on specialist in the capital city (only capital city has palace) to gain the benefit in reduction of melee unit maintenance cost. Is it worth it? You have to decide.

The first specialist in city wall improvement may get increased attack power from the wall. The second specialist in city wall improvement may give the city two attacks instead of just one. The third specialist may allow the city to fortify one more unit.

If this is programmable, and if we can design an AI that is smart enough to also take advantage of this, then this game will be a lot more interesting to play.

Let's explore this a little further...

First, instead of having only some 'Great People' pop up from Specialists and specialist slots in the city (like the current Great Merchant, Great Engineer, Great Scientist) let's have the interaction of building/improvement and specialist generate all of the Great People.

In your examples:

The Barracks Specialist is actually a Veteran who is available to train new troops (or even old ones who are garrisoned in the city). To get a Veteran, you have to fight (gain XP with a unit). But, let's give the player a decision to make: Instead of a Promotion from a victorious fight, you can choose to 'skim off' the best men from the unit, forego the Promotion, and instead gain a Veteran to fill the slot in a Barracks. With progress and technology, the Barracks may gain a second Slot, but this one isn't merely for more XPs to units, it allows you to Specialize the training in that barracks. Specifically, it allows you to choose a Promotion that Every Unit built or 'trained' (Garrison for X turns) in that city will get.

Thus, you can specialize your army, or a part of it, for the types of wars/conflicts you anticipate - and set up one city as your 'Sparta' or Potsdam, the centerpiece of your military.

The original Trader (Merchant) Specialist in a Market is pretty thoroughly confined to internal trade and activity within the city. He adds Gold. BUT the Merchant, the 'advanced' Trader, is also involved with bringing in goods from elsewhere, so he would affect Trade Routes as well, increasing Gold from them. The Trader or Merchant Specialist in a Caravansary or Harbor, on the other hand, is a pure 'foreign trader' - and I suggest they could affect not only the Gold, but also the length of Trade Routes, the Happiness generated by brining in 'foreign luxuries' (not necessarily those that show as Resources, but the Little Things - decorated pottery, foreign cloth or clothing, metal work, crafts, etc), etc.

There needs to be some major changes made to City Defense in the next iteration of the game, but the 'Wall Specialist' is a good place to start:
he's a Artisan/Craftsman/Engineer type specialist, and his effect is dramatic: without him, the city wall increases HP and Defense, but the city has only a minimal Ranged combat factor (some archers shooting from top of the walls, dropping rocks, etc) with a minimum Range. With the 'Engineer' in the slot, the city can build Towers and similar shooting platforms, and the city Ranged Factor (and Defense Factor) goes up. Once the Technology for Catapults kicks in, the Ranged Factor goes up even more.

City Defense will, and should, depend on some resources in the form of specialists being committed to it.

Back to the Market for a moment. The interaction of Buildings and Specialists can allow whole new specialization and activities in your civilization or the individual city. Increased Gold does not require a hierarchy of buildings: Market - Bank- Stock Exchange. The simple 'Gold' increase can be obtained by increasing specialist slots, and the type of slots, in the same Building. So, the Market become increasingly involved in Distribution rather than Gold: succeeding slots will increase Trade, including internal 'trade' (distribution) within the city, so the increases are to Population Growth (more food readily available 'right down the street') and Happiness (availability of minor 'Luxuries' to anyone with the cash or trade). The Bank, on the other hand, not only provides Gold but also provides Financing for international trade and Major Government Projects (look at the histories of the early European 'bankers' - the Fugger and Rothschild families and their competitors). So, a Bank will increase the number of Trade Routes, the Gold from them, and, with, say, a second Merchant or Entrepreneur specialist, give you a special benefit like Maintenance-Free Worker(s), Road Building, or a speed up in Wonder Construction (as far as you - the government- is concerned, these 'civilians' are coming up with Free Money!).

Once you get a Stock Market and an Entrepreneur in the slot(s), the 'Free Money' effect kicks in big time. The capital-intensive projects, like railroad building or canal/port construction in the 18th and 19th century, were to a large part only financially possible by the immense ability of the stock market to raise capital for them. So, in addition to a certain amount of Gold direct to the 'Palace' in taxes on transactions, the big effect of a Stock Market is to increase the speed and decrease the cost of Major Projects - railroad building, Wonder and National Wonder construction, etc.

Oh, and the Palace is one place where Specialists come into their own as Agents for Specialization.
Every Palace starts with a slot for an Administrator specialist - even if it's just a guy with a flat board keeping track of the number of spearmen in the Chief's Bunch with a sharp stick, he's helping keep the whole thing running.
BUT the Palace and Court were also the greatest consumers of Luxuries of all kinds, so the second Slot in the Palace can be filled by either another Administrator (because you are trying to start a 5th city or a second city a loooooong way off) OR an Artisan or Craftsman, who will increase the Happiness and Reduce the Revolt Risk (increased 'Loyalty' from Gifts From the Monarch) in the city.
The Palace, or center of government, in other words, is one of the most flexible places to use Specialists - you could even justify a mechanism for using Scribes or Scholars specialists there, producing Royal Chronicles that might turn into a Heroic Epic or National Epic...

Summary: There's a LOT more that can be done with the Specialist Concept in Civ VI. It has been limited so far by a basically 'linear' and limited application, but there is no reason at all to maintain that in a new iteration of the Civ series. In these posts, I've just started scratching the surface of what can be done.

 

[ShadowWarrior]

Yeah. I think specialists, when designed right, can make a BIG difference to the game. It can give the game greater diversity and re-playability. It can also give players the opportunities to really customize their civilizations in a creative way. That specialists' has not lived up to their potential is due exactly to what you have pointed out, which is that the benefit they confer are very "linear", or what I call "generic". I hope Civ series designers will do something about this.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yeah... That specialists' has not lived up to their potential is due exactly to what you have pointed out, which is that the benefit they confer are very "linear", or what I call "generic". I hope Civ series designers will do something about this.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but one of the primary reasons I post on these forums is to provide/stimulate ideas to the Civ VI designers and programmers: there's a 'think tank' of hundreds if not thousands of people on the forums and in the Modding community full of ideas (good and bad!) on how to make Civ VI different, better, more playable, etc. They'd be fools not to at least think about the ideas that are put forth here.

I know I'm going to buy and play whatever they come up with, but it would be nice to be able to play without gritting my teeth and occasionally shutting down the game in frustration...

 

[Naokaukodem]

Boris, your ideas make me think about Colonization where you could have a "major" type of specialists that produced bells that were accelerating the rate at which new colons appeared in the old world. We could use a similar specialist in order to attract people from tribes/villages/cities around (+1/2/... growth per turn).

Or we could implement some "city renown" that would have the same effect, with the disadvantage to attract barb invasions more. City renown could depend on various factors like cultural range and real attractiveness (depending highly on the infrastructure of the city, if it can host more people or not)...

Ideally, a city would not grow anymore citizen by citizen, but be as populated as it can be since its founding. (making the game interesting since the start) Instead of "food growth", we would have "renown growth". So, cities populations could fluctuate, the highest civilizations being able to have the biggest cities at a given time, populations that would grow according to infrastructures (slowly with time with buildings built if so) and technology (more and more during a game), stagnate when their capacity is at max or when populations around dry up or stick to another city, or decrease with various factors like plague, wars (including war anticipations, like if we are weak or strong), criminality, famines, etc.

---

Additionnally, I think that we should think about making military units city specialists. Like in the old Civs, they would consume 2 food units (if food is kept) and / or cost gold. You could make public offers, the more you promise the more volunteers show up. (depending also on the type of population you have, poor or rich, hence the importance to have a poor/uneducated population)