New Start

[Rallas]

Europe won't rise up because the Roman Empire was their security and protector. The Middle Ages began because there was no one protecting them anymore so everyone scrambled to find ways to defend themselves leading to ethnic diversity as the Castles were built up.

The Turks are a little more difficult though because if we have them pop up it will screw over both AI and Player Byzantine Empire. However if the Parthian Empire remains and is not conquered by the Mongols this leads to no rise of the Seljuk Turks taking Baghdad. The Seljuk were the primary force that eventually caused the Ottoman's to conquer them.

As for the New World it all depends on the Powerhouse nations opinions of exploration and technology. Japan if we keep it's isolation policy will not be discovering America. China on the other hand has the possiblity if Zheng He somehow makes it to the Western Coast of America. As for Rome itself it depends more on whether they want to explore more(If it was true that the Phonecians discovered the New World first then Rome might get the urge to discover the lands the Phonecians found.)

 

[Zagoroth]

If we are assuming the Chinese kept its massive fleet I would assume the New World would be discovered at roughly the same time.

 

[Rallas]

Exactly only difference may be that China discovers California first and then the Aztecs which might change how the New World reacts with the Old World.

 

[Zagoroth]

Well assuming they act like the Spanish they wold probably discover the Aztecs with a few years of colonizing California. However the Chinese as example of them building the Treasure Fleet, were more interested in showing the world their dominance. Not necessarily however did they want to control the whole world. Maybe the Chinese would colonize the Americas, but not conquer the Aztecs or Incans?

 

[Rallas]

That was what i was thinking that instead China and the Aztecs would get along and possibly make them like Korea as a tribute state?

 

[T_F]

China would definitely just vassalize the Aztecs, it would never feel it necessary to directly administer them. Odds are they'd adopt a whole lot of Chinese technology, and be able to remain a distinct nation for a whole lot longer than OTL.

Japan
I have been told countless times by a friend of mine that the Japanese didn't use horses until after the failed Mongol invasion. If this is true they would not have had horses, not sure how big an affect this would have had though.

No offense to your friend, but that's completely wrong. Early Japanese warfare was based mainly on mounted archers - it was actually considered sacred and public displays were banned in 698 - and was extensively used until the 1500s with the introduction of gunpowder.

 

[kairob]

I just thought, without the Yuan Dynasty and the Ottoman Turks to take gunpowder to Europe and with the Native Americans having trade links with China it would be possible (perhaps even likely) that not only would the Aztecs get gunpowder before the Europeans but that they might seek to contact Europe rather than the other way around (in order to cut Persia out of the Silk Route)

 

[Zagoroth]

Even without the Ottoman Turks whoever was there would most likely adopt gunpowder from the Silk Road. I am assuming crusades still would have happened, since there is a Christian Europe and a Muslim Middle East, so gunpowder would most likely have spread.

 

[kairob]

In my version of events there is no Islam, but if you like it you can have it in by all means. Also, most Chinese Dynasties kept their state secrets very well (like the silk worm); the Yuan Dynasty was an exception, letting a lot of Chinese inventions leave the region. Without them, it is less likely such things would have reached Europe (though not impossible).

 

[Rallas]

Well if the Mongols still try to invade the different countries throughout the world then there is still a chance for Europe to gain gunpowder even without the Silk Road. It seems through the Franco-Mongol Alliance during the Seventh Crusade helped to bring some gunpowder into Europe.

I think an important thing now to do is.
A. List the Civilizations we want in the Alternate History
B. Pick Religions that would exsist in this timeline
C. Decide upon what government most civs followed and who their leader was
D. Pick a starting date.

 

[T_F]

I agree with Rallas's plan.

@Kairob: Out of curiosity, what would be the reasoning behind the absence of Islam?

 

[kairob]

That the Arab Caliphate lost its wars against Byzantium and Persia and as a result Islam never became important and either slowly died out or is a regional curiosity.

 

[Rallas]

I can start a drawing up idea of example civs i had done so earlier but it was far from complete and had some of my own ideas involved with it.

 

[T_F]

@Kairob - That would make sense, unless it ends up getting spread non-militarily.

@Rallas - Sounds good to me.

Quick question - would the Saxon invasion of Britain still occur, or would the Brits still be mainly Celtic?

 

[Rallas]

Since the Saxons were not pushed by the Huns to advance anywhere they would remain in Germania and thus the Brits would be split between Roman and Celts.

 

[Lean]

So what about the Arabian Penninsulia? Would Persia and Byzantium divide it, would Persia simply absorb the whole thing, or would it stay unpopulated by a large civlization after the defeat of the Arabian Caliphate?

 

[T_F]

I would expect it to stay Arabian, perhaps as an Arabian Caliphate confined to Arabia (likely still Islamic, but possibly less and less so).

@Rallas - Awesome! I propose we steal Brithenig for the British Romance language (for names and stuff).

 

[Rallas]

Okay here is a first draft of civilizations for this alternate history. For certain civs i will give a reason for their exsistance and also the government they follow and leader. Others i'll give no explanation as i cannot find one or there is no need.

1. Roman Empire(Authoritarian leadership possibly Theocracy depends on whether people wish for the Emperor to remain in power or if the Pope overtook control after a certain date.)
2. Byzantine Empire(Same leadership as in real byzantine we can even use the real Emperor names if we want it to be that similar.)
3. Persia(Was thinking mabye the Parthian Empire remained together to keep from Rome or Byzantine from taking them over.)
4. Arabia(can keep the Middle East active in war. Fierce enemies with Persia and the Byzantines may or may not have Islam depends. If Islam is ingame then theocracy otherwise a Chiefdom form of government sounds good since they were mostly nomads at first.)
5. China(The Dynasty system. A good idea is to find a realistic Emperor or Empress to have as the leader or even create one.)
6. Mongolia(Khanate system. Ghengis ruling?)
7. Japan(Monarchy?)
8. Celts(Will be located in Scotland and Ireland as fierce enemies of the England and German Rome territory.)
9. Vikings
10. Russia(Tsardom created early on?)
11. Mali(Can be effective in making sure Rome cannot expand further south into Africa. Monarchy with Mansa Musa mabye as a leader.)
12. Ethiopia(Can be effective in making sure the Byzantine's cannot expand further south from Egypt. The Aksumite Empire?)
13. Aztecs(Aztec Empire)
14. Inca(Inca Empire)
15. Native Americans(if we decide that China finds the Aztecs first we can make it so the Aztec get the idea of invading the Native American lands forcing them to ally together to fight the Aztecs and Chinese colonists. Would be like a Confederacy similar to the Iroquois only having more tribes.)
16. Australian Aboriginees(To give Australia a civ so that it doesn't remain empty forever. Could start a chiefdom design and move later on into a Monarchy or Dictatorship?)
17. India(Gupta Empire?)

There is space for like one or two more right? Anyways I guess I could also list the religions since those are shorter.

1. Catholicism
2. Orthodoxy?(to keep the Roman and Byzantine Empires not completely friendly and just stomp over all their enemies.)
3. Confucism
4. Celtic Gods?(To further seperate the Romans from the Celts and mabye Vikings?)
5. Hinduism
6. Buddhism
7. Judaism?(Had Judaism because of the tolerance that the romans let the Jews practice their religion perhaps it spread further in this alternate world?

 

[kairob]

16. Australian Aboriginees(To give Australia a civ so that it doesn't remain empty forever. Could start a chiefdom design and move later on into a Monarchy or Dictatorship?)

I like most of your civs but I don't like this one. The indigenous Australians showed no signs (to my knowledge) of even wanting to form a large government governing the continent. Maybe have it as a breakaway state after being colonised by China, Japan or India.

 

[Rallas]

That works to me. the Aboriginees was just some way to create a civ on Australia so that it doesnt completely remain empty.