New Start

[T_F]

So the whole Roman empire is one civ - we're going with that? Or have we decided? I for one am convinced that a contiguous Roman empire could not last until 1500 (which is probably when China would discover the Aztecs, as mentioned).

The Native American civ is a cool idea (mildly implausible though, considering the massive diversity of language and culture in any substantial area), but if we have a pre-1600 start whether or not it would spawn would depend on in-game events, rather than a fixed date. (If the Aztecs ignored the rest of North America, their spawn would be completely implausible.)

And I agree with Kairob on the Aborigines - they had exposure to agriculture (well, at least some did, by trading with people on islands south of New Guinea) and expressly chose not to adopt it.

 

[Rallas]

We're splitting Rome to be what it was at the time of Theodosius I. Only adding little territory to Rome and possibly the Byzantine like Germany.

Concerning Starting date i'd say anywhere from 400-700AD at the starting date. Nations that would start at spawn would be Rome, Byzantine, China, and Persia? or should we have mabye Ethiopia and Japan start with them as well?(The other option is to have them start at a later date and give them a reason for this date like sucessful unification of government that didn't happen because of Rome not falling or something like that.)

About the Native Americans because of China being the one that historically(in this alt history) discovers America the Aztecs get the ida of working with the Chinese into conquering the midwest of America this forces the Native Americans to unify to combat the invading armies(spawn date mabye around 1600-1700 for them?)

 

[Zagoroth]

Having the Celtic Gods is unnecessary. Christianity had started to spread among the Celts in the fifth century.

 

[Rallas]

So we replace the Celtic Gods with Islam perhaps?

 

[kairob]

Or some form of revived Imperial Cult?

 

[T_F]

I kind of like the Imperial Cult idea, but if things go the way they went OTL, we'd still end up with an almost totally Christian Rome. Replacing it with Islam works.

We're splitting Rome to be what it was at the time of Theodosius I. Only adding little territory to Rome and possibly the Byzantine like Germany.

Dang, I was hoping to play some successor states.

Concerning Starting date i'd say anywhere from 400-700AD at the starting date. Nations that would start at spawn would be Rome, Byzantine, China, and Persia? or should we have mabye Ethiopia and Japan start with them as well?(The other option is to have them start at a later date and give them a reason for this date like sucessful unification of government that didn't happen because of Rome not falling or something like that.)

Something like perhaps 500 AD? I think Japan should also spawn at the start, they were in full swing by the 600s. (I don't know much about Ethiopia.)

About the Native Americans because of China being the one that historically(in this alt history) discovers America the Aztecs get the ida of working with the Chinese into conquering the midwest of America this forces the Native Americans to unify to combat the invading armies(spawn date mabye around 1600-1700 for them?)

Hmm....
They never did this to combat Western armies (sure, in small groups, but nothing that could be called a 'civilization'), so I'm not quite sure they would to combat a Chinese/Aztec force. As cool as it would be to have them, I'm just not sure it's plausible.

If we REALLY want another Native American civ we could just have an Iroquois Confederacy, spawn date in 1150.

 

[Rallas]

I would have listed the Imperial Cult but by the starting time the cult was already not the primary religion of the Romans.

500AD works for me. Japan starting at the start date works as well. I don't want to place too many civs onto the starting date so we limit to Rome, Byzantine, Japan, China, and Persia?

The Iroquois Confederacy would probably be more powerful due to not having to be forced into European politics and such so perhaps they are a good Native American civ to start and replace where the US would have started.

 

[T_F]

Those starting civs look good.

Of course, the Iroquois wouldn't take all of the US's starting area. We'd also have to make sure to put enough barbarian pressure on them that they don't just take over all of North America.

 

[Lean]

Exactly. We don't want a super powered Iroguois that can throw back any invasion attempts made by China or Rome (If Rome makes an expidition, that is), or the Vikings or someone. So it's a 500 AD then? Shouldn't Ethopia spawn at start also? The Kingdom of Aksum was most deffinatly around in this peroid.

 

[Rallas]

Okay we can add Ethiopia but i'd say no more only cause we do want civs to spawn and not just all start at 0 right?

 

[Zagoroth]

That is another question. Do we have an American civilization spawn as a decolonization of either the Chinese or Rome?

 

[Mekajiki]

Honestly, America would be so ridiculously different if it spawned from China as opposed to England I don't think we could have any real way of simulating it. Rome wouldn't really fit in the timeline.

 

[T_F]

Indeed. The only way we could simulate it would be if there were two separate civs, and the game chose which to spawn based on who already owns the tiles.

Or we could have a European one on the east coast and a Chinese one on the west coast.

 

[Rallas]

There is a possiblity of a Roman America we just have to

A. Decide why Rome would expand to the East Coast( If we make it like normal America.)
B. Find a reason for why America is breaking away from Rome(possiblities include war of independence, Rome can manage better with America having its own gov., etc.)
C. Decide if the Iroquois Confederacy will be in the game.(If it is then it would be more of a pain for Roman America as they would probably fight over cities.)

Otherwise we could create a Chinese America situated on the West Coast.

 

[Mekajiki]

I agree that we could create a Roman America if we do meet those three criteria, but I'm saying even if there is a Chinese America, there's no way we could guess how it would be. First of all, it would be guaranteed not to be called America. Second, pre-1900, the USA was mostly descendants of the original English/Western European. A Chinese break-away America would almost assuredly act completely different than actual America. Who says that would try Manifest Destiny? China hated the barbarians on their borders(I'm sure they would see Indians this way), but even when they did invade/conquer these groups, they rarely held the territories for long periods of time. We couldn't even begin to make UHV, UPs, UUs, or UBs for this America, we have no idea what it would be like whatsoever.

 

[Rallas]

These facts are indeed true so if we are going to create any form of America it would have to be a Roman America or no America at all.

 

[T_F]

I disagree that we can't make a Chinese version of America. While there may not be any definite answers to the questions Mekajiki has raised, there certainly are plausible answers. (The same questions could justify not adding a Roman America, or for that matter, never having any civ that didn't already exist OTL.) We could work out a game-external timeline to give them an identity, and then transpose them into the game.

I think though we should have both a Roman and Chinese America, the Romans on the East Coast and the Chinese on the West Coast.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Well I don't know about you but I can imagine at least 1 UHV for each of these Americas: Destroy the other one.
4 more to go?

 

[Mekajiki]

I like that idea a lot. It also adds the Manifest Destiny idea to each side.

Will the conflict between Roman America and Chinese America lead to conflict between Rome and China themselves? How will Russia be involved?

Also, I still think the two Americas need some way to play in the world stage, because the lands of America are resource-heavy enough to support two and probably more Great Powers.

 

[Rallas]

I think that definently the conflict should effect Rome and China. If it did it could cause a World War with each of the nations of the world taking sides. Russia could either take a side or even go against both China and Rome hoping to get territory from both.

As for these new Americas' something that has to be decided is when they form their nation. If we want the two to fight they would have to be close in age(one being older hten the other by at the most i'd say 100 years) so that it could seem that the one America is encroaching with a superior military on the other. The Other America calls from help from Rome(or China.) The mother country sends forces. The other mother country also sends forces seeing their rival sending them. War is declared between mother countries. All the other nations begin to take sides.