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New Start

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by Zagoroth, Aug 19, 2009.

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What new start would you want to play?

Poll closed Sep 28, 2009.
  1. An ancient start: to make the starting locations of notably China and India more historical.

    4 vote(s)
    8.2%
  2. A slightly later start for the Phoenicians: Replaces Carthage with the Phoenicians.

    2 vote(s)
    4.1%
  3. A Classical start: Makes Rome spawn next to stronger Carthage and Greece.

    5 vote(s)
    10.2%
  4. A Medieval start: Either after the fall of Rome or before the first crusade.

    2 vote(s)
    4.1%
  5. An Industrial Revolution/ Scientific Revolution start

    21 vote(s)
    42.9%
  6. An alternate history scenario: If chosen the specific alternate history would be discussed.

    15 vote(s)
    30.6%
  1. T_F

    T_F Reynardine the Great

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,163
    This is looking really good. I like the ideas ^_^

    Russia depends on how far it goes. It probably won't have a border with Rome (probably some German or Slavic state(s)), but if it goes all expansionist like in OTL it will have one with China. So it's got three options - neutrality (for obvious reasons), join China (to avoid a battle in their far east, and possibly to take some stuff on the west front if any statelet is allied with Rome), or join Rome (to take some stuff from China).

    The older American nation would probably be Chinese.

    Couple of interesting thoughts to mention.
    1 - the Chinese government would likely not sponsor wholesale colonization of America, odds are it'll be for personal or commercial gain. A lot of it would probably be like English colonization, peasants seeking an easier life in the New World.
    2 - What would Japan's position on colonization be? Under Nobunaga, who knows, it might get in on it (if we save him from assassination); and under Hideyoshi they certainly would. An idea me and some friends had a while ago involved China being a counterpart to Spain (taking stuff from the natives (though likely not total conquest), but never really colonizing), and Japan being a counterpart to Britain (really getting in on colonization, and having an epic navy and a lot of overseas possessions in the 1800s).
     
  2. steampunk1880

    steampunk1880 Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    328
    So Chinese peasants emigrate to the west coast of Yingzhou to escape an ever more rigid social structure that leaves families trapped in their economic strata for generations (represented by later Chinese leaders favoring caste). Largely ignored initially by the power structure of the motherland, Chinese resource extraction colonies on the west coast grow and prosper from an influx of immigrants seeking a place far from the civil service exams that favor the wealthy and connected. Finally the imperial court takes notice of the lawlessness and (more importantly) recognizes the economic value of the colonies and seeks, by any means necessary, to bring it closer into the traditional Chinese fold. This precipitates a crisis as many of the peasant immigrants have become wealthy and powerful in the new world and value their freedom (emancipation) the Nouveau riche of the west coast colonies stage a rebellion (much like the wealthy merchants and plantation owners of the English colonies) to ensure their continued prosperity using buzzwords like "equality of opportunity for all men" and the "corrupt imperial court seeking to become wealthier at your expense".
    The bid for independence was a success, and with trans-pacific talk of wealth for all in the new world, immigrants from all of Asia are making their way to the ports of West Yingzhou. But this wealth is not to be had in the well established cities of the coast where the Gentlemen farmers and merchants now hold considerable power in the new world now that the influence from the motherland is gone. (can there be a civic for oligarchy?) the immigrants must move east, across the foreboding spinal mountain range to where explorers say lies a vast and rich farmland drained by a river far larger than the Yangtze. There they might come into conflict with the Iroquois Confederacy, united together against the invaders by word filtering east of strangers that violently drive out all Nations they come across.

    I'm thinking that the chinese should colonize the west coast and move east from there. The New Empire of Yingzhou should value emancipation, but there is no reason why it should be Democratic. At the same time china is colonizing the west coast, the Iroquois Confederacy should spawn on the eastern seaboard and begin catching up so that by the time the New Empire of Yingzhou spawns and starts expanding east, the Iroquois Confederacy should be capable of mounting a strong defense. If anything the Iroquois Confederacy should be the one to inherit the USA's love of representation (emerging as it were from a council of tribes). If the Romans ever make it to the Americas, (instead of, for example, fighting over Sub-Saharan Africa as east and west spreads down the coast nearest to it, west Rome should concentrate on South America if only because nobody else seems interested and it's a hop, skip and jump from their provinces along the Gold Coast.
     
  3. T_F

    T_F Reynardine the Great

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,163
    I like that a lot, that's almost exactly what I was thinking. Not sure about the Iroquois though, they probably wouldn't be able to mount a strong defense against any Old World power unless they had already been in contact with one for quite some time.

    I still think there should be Roman territories on the East Coast, if only because settlers from Britannia and Gallia (especially Britannia) would be far more likely to want to go there than all the way to Brazil - that's like twice as far. Perhaps colonization would be done on a provincial basis rather than by the central government (or by separate nations! I'm not gonna drop it :p), and Britannia and Gallia would go for North America and places like Hispania and Lusitania for South America.
     
  4. Zagoroth

    Zagoroth Prince

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    There were actually many different types of British colonizers. The initial ones in the Virginia colony were the homeless poor and thieves from England. The new colony was used to remove them from their society, and they became indentured servants. The New Englanders are probably who you are referring to. The majority were the Middling sort, and mostly Puritans who went to America for religious freedom and escape from divine fury over old England. However the New Englanders were mostly a merchant class and not peasants. Also the New World was anything but an easier life. The people of Virginia faced smaller life spans and disease, and the New Englanders rebuilt their life without that much use from indentured servants or slaves.

    I am reading American Colonies by Alan Taylor so I could not resist putting this out there.

    Also the Spanish built Mexico City on the ruins of Tenochtitlan, colonized New Mexico, and colonized Florida. Historically the Japanese possessions were taken by force, not built. This however can obviously change. The Meiji Restoration would not happen in the mid nineteenth century as the new USA would have different values. However it is safe to say that if China became a powerhouse in scientific advances and imperial ideas that they would have forced Japan into becoming a vassal, Sino-Japanese Union (as a pun on the Iberian Union), or forcing them to consider the adoption of said ideas to remain independent.
     
  5. T_F

    T_F Reynardine the Great

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,163
    True. I'm sure there'd be many different types of Chinese or Japanese colonists too, quite likely organized on similar lines. (For example, if Japan ends up outlawing Christianity a bit later than OTL, I could see a lot of Japanese Christians emigrating to America.)

    I understand the impulse entirely :p

    I'm sure under anyone other than Tokugawa they would adopt those technologies, and if they didn't and Sakoku happened anyway, no one would be able to open them until the Industrial Revolution (starting in the late 1700s there were many failed attempts). Japan would not take becoming a vassal to China well, especially considering that individual daimyou didn't take being a vassal to Japan itself very well.
    If China did end up opening them, I would expect the process to be similar to what it was OTL - sign a few unequal treaties at first, then modernize like crap until there's no question of vassalization.

    Historically Japanese possessions were taken by force, but of course that started in 1870, not 1600 - pretty much everywhere was full by then, you had to conquer to get anything. I don't know how any restoration would play out if there would be such a thing in the first place - an open Japan gives no obvious reason to get rid of the shougun unless something else major happens. We could end up with a Constitutional Shogunate as modern Japan's form of government ^_^
     
  6. cheesemijit

    cheesemijit Prince

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    Location:
    Eastleigh, Hampshire, England
    I have read all these post and i am liking the idea. I have wanted to make a scenairio for GEM (maybe RoM too) but i don't have the imagination or historical knowledge to accurately represent an alternate world. I personally feel that a scenairio set after alot of the events you have described would be better than going through them and i don't feel comfortable using RFC to make it as it is much harder. I was thinking of making around the 1400's, or whenever Japan or China settled/conquered their first city in the americas to get them to stay over there as this would be hard without settlermaps and spawns.

    would some of you be willing to help me with city placement/civs/civ areas/unit amounts and other starting details so that i could build it with more accuracy? if you would then i will set up a thread in GEM forums where we can discuss.
     
  7. Rallas

    Rallas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    71
    I can help with most of that information.
     
  8. cheesemijit

    cheesemijit Prince

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    Location:
    Eastleigh, Hampshire, England
    awesome, i am going to begin a thread in GEM, i encourage as many of you as possible to come and help me with making this as i don't think you have enough people to make a RFC mod but a scenairio is much easier, and you wouldnt want all this talking to go to waste.
    No More Attilla, A new World
     

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