New Version - August 10th (8/10)

[Gazebo]

This is what americans actually believe.

Congrats, what a fantastic way to get your post ignored.

You don't get growth bonuses if your empire is unhappy. That's the way it has always been, and that's how it needs to stay. No reason to overcomplicate this. If you get a WLTKD while your empire is unhappy, that's unfortunate, but it does not warrant a complete redesign of the system, which is, essentially, what is being proposed.

G

 

[Strigvir]

That's the way it has always been, and that's how it needs to stay.

But there are a lot of things "the way it has always been, and that's how it needs to stay", such as happiness system, percentage yield bonuses and AI bonuses, yet they didn't stay.

No reason to overcomplicate this. If you get a WLTKD while your empire is unhappy, that's unfortunate, but it does not warrant a complete redesign of the system, which is, essentially, what is being proposed.

Current GM bulb benefits the player more than AI, because AI, on average, is terrible at managing happiness.

As for "american" comment - way to miss a point. I wasn't saying "lel dumb americans". What I meant is that american mentality differs quite greatly from european/asian. And WLTKD in fact can be (and was/is) used in unhappy empires.

 

[Gangrin]

The point is WLTKD is a symbol of a happy populace, it is NOT a direct representation of some Independence day holiday or something. The fact that it's tied to some luxury resource is just a mechanical incentive to expand or trade. Think about it realistically. Imagine you live in a poor governed corrupt hellhole of the planet with no sanitation, education, job opportunities, anything, every day is worse than the one before. Yeah, that's definitely kind of environment you want to raise your children in - because look, THEY HAVE SOME NEAT PEPPER IN THE STORE. A pity you can't even afford it

 

[Strigvir]

The point is WLTKD is a symbol of a happy populace,

The symbol of happy populace is the happiness counter and golden ages.

it is NOT a direct representation of some Independence day holiday or something.

It's pretty funny you mentioned Independence day in context of WLTKD. Feels good to live in the land of free, am I right? But jokes aside, WLTKD is not a holiday, it's more of an inside propaganda. And inside propaganda IS effective to alleviate unhappiness problems, but alas, only temporarily.

Imagine you live in a poor governed corrupt hellhole of the planet with no sanitation, education, job opportunities, anything, every day is worse than the one before. Yeah, that's definitely kind of environment you want to raise your children in - because look, THEY HAVE SOME NEAT PEPPER IN THE STORE. A pity you can't even afford it

You basically described USSR or North Korea.

 

[JFD]

The way I see it is that WLTKD represents a stage in your civilization's development when their basic needs are fulfilled (suggesting, especially in CBP, that they would not be inherently unhappy), and thus they can now pursue luxury needs. As Gangrin points out, this is basically the symbol of a happy civilization. The confusion, I think, arises from the name "We Love the King Day," which implies deference to some kind of authority (i.e. you), when, in how it is trigged through luxuries (or GMs, as the case may be), it is more like "We Love Life Day."

Certainly, you could trigger a WLTKD as a sort of propagandistic tool (as I sort of do in a few of my civs), but that's not how it translates (for me, at least) via the acquisition of luxuries or expense of GMs.

 

[Gangrin]

The symbol of happy populace is the happiness counter and golden ages.

It's pretty funny you mentioned Independence day in context in WLTKD. Feels good to live in the land of free, am I right? But jokes aside, WLTKD is not a holiday, it's more of an inside propaganda. And inside propaganda IS effective to alleviate unhappiness problems, but alas, only temporarily.

You basically described USSR or North Korea.

1) Not exactly. Well, true, Happiness IS and GA somewhat represent happiness, but i agree with JFD's vision
2) Dunno, i've never been on the other side of Atlantic and Pacific oceans. But i stand on the premise that WLTKD is NOT a government decision, it's solely a populace's decision. President can talk all he want about 3 kids in every family, but if environment does not provide necessary conditions, well, there will be almost none such families
3) Exactly, and i can tell you firsthand that in late USSR and early Russian Federation despite sudden appearance of a lot "luxury goods" and propaganda demographic situation was TERRIBLE (it's actually still is, but not THAT bad).

 

[Funak]

The way I see it is that WLTKD represents a stage in your civilization's development when their basic needs are fulfilled (suggesting, especially in CBP, that they would not be inherently unhappy), and thus they can now pursue luxury needs. As Gangrin points out, this is basically the symbol of a happy civilization. The confusion, I think, arises from the name "We Love the King Day," which implies deference to some kind of authority (i.e. you), when, in how it is trigged through luxuries (or GMs, as the case may be), it is more like "We Love Life Day."

Certainly, you could trigger a WLTKD as a sort of propagandistic tool (as I sort of do in a few of my civs), but that's not how it translates (for me, at least) via the acquisition of luxuries or expense of GMs.

These are two completely different ways of looking at the bonus. I wouldn't go as far as to say that one is right and the other is wrong.
I personally think poor, miserable people would still celebrate getting that rare luxury they asked for and that a festival like that would ignore general feeling of unhappiness in the empire, after all happiness is a global issue while WLTKD is local, the people living in Awesome-town wouldn't let their festival get ruined because people over in Depresso-town are sad.
Again this is just my way of seeing it, and I wouldn't force you to see things my way. However this clearly isn't just a philosophical problem, this is a balance-problem, which is why I'm bringing it up anyways.


Besides, if people didn't celebrate WLTKD while unhappy, the bonus 15% gold science and culture(?) from the religious founder-belief wouldn't trigger either, but it does .

 

[Stalker0]

I am pretty sure WLTKD works when unhappy during the base game (though it would be reduced due to the massive growth hit). I think the same should apply in the mod, as this is not really a balance area we are trying to address. That is my 2 cents.

 

[Gazebo]

I am pretty sure WLTKD works when unhappy during the base game (though it would be reduced due to the massive growth hit). I think the same should apply in the mod, as this is not really a balance area we are trying to address. That is my 2 cents.

Base game code:

[B]		// Cities stop growing when empire is very unhappy
		if(GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).IsEmpireVeryUnhappy())[/B]
		{
			int iMod = /*-100*/ GC.getVERY_UNHAPPY_GROWTH_PENALTY();
			iTotalMod += iMod;
			GC.getGame().BuildProdModHelpText(toolTipSink, "TXT_KEY_FOODMOD_UNHAPPY", iMod);
		}
		// Cities grow slower if the player is over his Happiness Limit
[B]		else if(GET_PLAYER(getOwner()).IsEmpireUnhappy())[/B]
		{
			int iMod = /*-75*/ GC.getUNHAPPY_GROWTH_PENALTY();
			iTotalMod += iMod;
			GC.getGame().BuildProdModHelpText(toolTipSink, "TXT_KEY_FOODMOD_UNHAPPY", iMod);
		}
		// WLTKD Growth Bonus
[B]		else if(GetWeLoveTheKingDayCounter() > 0)[/B]
		{
			int iMod = /*25*/ GC.getWLTKD_GROWTH_MULTIPLIER();
			iTotalMod += iMod;
			GC.getGame().BuildProdModHelpText(toolTipSink, "TXT_KEY_FOODMOD_WLTKD", iMod);
		}

It is an else if chain, which means one cannot happen if another is active.

Nesides, if people didn't celebrate WLTKD while unhappy, the bonus 15% gold science and culture(?) from the religious founder-belief wouldn't trigger either, but it does .

Apples and oranges. One is a bonus during, and one is a bonus from a WLTKD.

 

[dylansan]

I'm going to interrupt this discussion to talk about my current game, which is about into the industrial era, as China. I noticed a couple of odd things.

Chu-Ko-Nu's obsolete at Industrialization, but upgrade at Metallurgy. I'm guessing the point of this is to allow you to build the unique unit even after you've unlocked it's replacement, which is totally fine. The problem is, I managed to get Industrialization before Metallurgy... Now I can't build Chu-Ko-Nu's or Volley Guns, or any ranged unit at all. Seems a little odd for a unit to become obsolete even when there isn't any replacement for it yet.

Since I like the idea of keeping the UU for longer, the best solution I can think of is the move the "obsolete" tech to something that requires the "upgrade" tech. This does the job but prevents my stupid mistake. I'd imagine this should apply to other UUs as well but I don't know how those are teched.

In this same game, I went to war with Spain and took most of her cities. What was interesting about the war is that she wouldn't let me stop. After I took one or two cities I was ready to quit, but she wouldn't negotiate peace for many many turns, all while sending one or two units to be evicerated at the hands of my composites and dromons. At some point I decided to just take advantage of it and get some more land. I noticed that once I started sending my armies to the city, she became willing to negotiate, but after I took it, she refused.

Eventually, I moved my army towards the cities she had left and she did negotiate, even becoming my vassal. Now that I think about it, I guess it makes sense that they'd try to take advantage of you having your army tied up elsewhere, but after proving I'm capable of wiping her out, you'd think she'd be more open to a peace deal.

I also noticed that the AI have very long, drawn out wars as well. Sweden and Spain had a war early on that I joined in, and eventually they made peace. But the Aztecs went to war with Mongolia, The Shoshone, and the Maya, and two of those wars only ended because Mongolia and the Shoshone were wiped out! Maybe Monty doesn't like peace deals, or he just wanted land, but I'd imagine the Shoshone should have wanted peace at any cost, and considering Monty's UA, he should have wanted it too. But this is all more of an observation than a suggestion. I don't really know if any of that is intended or perhaps just chance.

Something more likely to be a bug: With Spain as my vassal, my religion refuses to spread to her cities. She did found a religion in a city I have since taken and inquisited. She has two cities now surrounded on all sides by my religion, but neither of them are receiving any pressure from anywhere. I'm able to spread religion with missionaries, but even weirder, the missionary must be inside the city, not just adjacent to it, to spread religion. Looking at the cities, there are a few followers in each, but nothing indicates any pressure from any religion. It's possible they are actually being pressured, but I doubt it as they're the only ones in the middle of a continent of Buddhism not to get it.

Finally, I'd like to say that, as this is the first CBP game I've played in a while, I'm really enjoying the combat mechanics. I play on epic speed so the units have plenty of use, but the thing I find most interesting is how much danger units can be in. I've lost several archers thinking spearmen can't possibly be that strong. That's when I noticed an archer's combat strength is way lower than their ranged strength. Lost my upgraded scout that way too.

All in all I'm very impressed with how this is coming. Even having a glance at some of the UA's that were being debated, all of them seem very interesting with unique mechanics. With China's UA I was able to exceed Monty's population despite having about a third of the land. And happiness is much more manageable now, though of course I've been focusing on it to benefit my UA.

Thanks for reading, if you did. If I notice anything else I'll be sure to point it out, as always.

 

[Strigvir]

There is a cooldown after you take a city for treaty to become possible.

 

[Gamewizard]

Something more likely to be a bug: With Spain as my vassal, my religion refuses to spread to her cities. She did found a religion in a city I have since taken and inquisited. She has two cities now surrounded on all sides by my religion, but neither of them are receiving any pressure from anywhere. I'm able to spread religion with missionaries, but even weirder, the missionary must be inside the city, not just adjacent to it, to spread religion. Looking at the cities, there are a few followers in each, but nothing indicates any pressure from any religion. It's possible they are actually being pressured, but I doubt it as they're the only ones in the middle of a continent of Buddhism not to get it.

I believe part of Spain's UA is that she receives no religious pressure from outside religions.

 

[Natan35]

Umm... Dunno where to post this, but the files seem to be corrupt. I was only able to partly download them from some reason, and according to the Google chrome the files contain malware. Never happened to me with previous versions, Except for version 4- 22.

 

[dylansan]

There is a cooldown after you take a city for treaty to become possible.

I believe part of Spain's UA is that she receives no religious pressure from outside religions.

Thanks guys, that clears up a lot. Still I wonder if war is a little too hard to get out of. I seem to remember even a while after taking a city she was still steadfastly refusing peace.

 

[MSteele]

Thanks guys, that clears up a lot. Still I wonder if war is a little too hard to get out of. I seem to remember even a while after taking a city she was still steadfastly refusing peace.

Perhaps there is a threatened threshold? When you took her city(s), maybe the AI felt no longer (or less) threatened. After moving into her area with another set of combat units, maybe she then felt threatened again, subsequently offering/accepting terms.

Dunno, really. I'm just shooting in the dark here.

 

[Funak]

Perhaps there is a threatened threshold? When you took her city(s), maybe the AI felt no longer (or less) threatened. After moving into her area with another set of combat units, maybe she then felt threatened again, subsequently offering/accepting terms.

Dunno, really. I'm just shooting in the dark here.

Actually I've seen Isabella act like this as well, sometimes refusing peace for 30 turns after I rofl-stomped her army and capital (possibly more, but by that time I just attack again and eliminate her). Probably just a sideeffect of her being a nutcase.

 

[Stalker0]

It is an else if chain, which means one cannot happen if another is active.

Well fair enough, that works for me

 

[Funak]

Well fair enough, that works for me

It honestly doesn't matter if it worked in vanilla or not. The big question is if it should work here. And since both sides have provided decent enough explanations, philosophical debates about what a WLTKD festival actually is and what it represents won't be helpful. I'd like to keep the discussion completely balancecentric.
And imho it should be balanced out of the perspective that the happiness-system gets a little harsher at some point and staying happy 100% of the time isn't an option.

Current problems I see with the way it currently works is:

1. Chinese UA doesn't do anything if your empire is unhappy.
Sure, maybe the Chinese UA is powerful enough to handle something like this, but there really isn't any other UA suffering from such a big disadvantage.

2. The great merchant instant pop effect doesn't do anything if your empire is unhappy.
Sure, most of the time you have the option to settle the merchant instead, but if you pop the merchant for WLTKD and drop into negative happiness after that, you've pretty much wasted a GP. And keep in mind, that exact reasoning forced the silly unnatural instant-build change for great engineers.

3. Same as above really, a luxury-trade is a 50 turn commitment, happiness can change from turn to turn making you waste your trade commitment.

4. Unhappiness already works in a different way compared to vanilla
It doesn't completely kill growth like it did back there. For that reason, from a gameplay perspective, I don't see a reason why unhappiness should cancel out a growth-bonus.
One of the main reasons why unhappiness killed growth in vanilla was because mostly all of your unhappiness came from population, so your happiness was pretty much just a count of how much your cities could grow. Now sure bigger cities are harder to keep happy, but not by a lot, and they usually provide less unhappiness per pop than smaller cities.

 

[Strigvir]

Yeah, the main offender here is the happiness system which can easily drop your happiness by 50-100 in a matter of several turns without any explanation.

 

[Stalker0]

It honestly doesn't matter if it worked in vanilla or not. The big question is if it should work here.

Well you know me, I very much believe that unless there is a solid reason to change, we should stick with the original. There are some solid arguments to change, but the fact that the person is getting the same experience as the original is a point in its favor.