New Version - December 13th (12-13)

[Infixo]

@TadhgEomonn Check if other civ is sending a route to you. This probably blocks some routes.

 

[Questdog]

I have 3 trade routes available. I am sending two to Russia, one to Rostov and one to St. Petersburg. I cannot send my 3rd one anywhere, except internally. Moscow is on the coast between the other two cities but I cannot send one there. I cannot send one to the city state just beyond my borders either. I have no trade routes incoming from other civs at all.

Edit: The route to Rostov goes through the tile that would be the final tile of the Moscow route. The route to Rostov does not cross the final tile of the route to St. Petersburg. Is this why Moscow is off limits? Is this intended or a bug?

Edit 2: Also, I am at war with the city state, so that is why I cannot trade with it. Did not realize that until I went back and looked to see if the routes crossed its entry tile.

Edit 3: Fixed in the 12-15 release.

 

[ndrwmxwll]

Don't revert the EXP thing if it makes Marathon better plz

 

[Galbias]

I posted about my current game partway through in the Morocco thread. However, when Cold War passed (and Cold War always passes, I don't think I've ever even seen someone vote against it), trade routes became next to useless because Morocco had a different ideology and the few good trade routes left went through Morocco's territory and got instantly plundered.

I think Cold War may need some adjustments to AI logic concerning it in general (if there are no faraway trading partners of the same ideology it should probably be avoided) but I also think that the disadvantages of nearby trade partners are a bit too big at this point, a lot of them were at single digit Gold in the late game which I think is a bit too little.

 

[tu_79]

Don't revert the EXP thing if it makes Marathon better plz

Don't worry. Gazebo is only complaining because there's lots of advice without actual play testing.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The biggest complaint I see about epic+ games is that combat becomes trivial because units level so quickly. I decided that, by raising the XP-needed cap, players will need to work harder to achieve higher-level units. Yes, it makes passive and semi-passive sources of XP weaker, but there are generally many more (and much longer) wars in epic+, so this offsets it.

Did I missed something or why should war last longer in epic than in standard speed? I can conquer a city in standard speed in the same time as with epic speed. The game last 50% longer and and the production of units also need 50% more time (rarely played epic speed, correct me if iam wrong), so, the number of produced units is the same. From where should the extra XP come from?
If you want to correct the fighting in epic and marathon, you have to reduce the damage done by units and the health regeneration by 33% / 50%. THIS would lead to longer fights and more XP and would work with the higher borders you set for leveling up.

 

[tu_79]

Did I missed something or why should war last longer in epic than in standard speed? I can conquer a city in standard speed in the same time as with epic speed. The game last 50% longer and and the production of units also need 50% more time (rarely played epic speed, correct me if iam wrong), so, the number of produced units is the same. From where should the extra XP come from?
If you want to correct the fighting in epic and marathon, you have to reduce the damage done by units and the health regeneration by 33% / 50%. THIS would lead to longer fights and more XP and would work with the higher borders you set for leveling up.

I think getting less promotions is going to slow down human players.

 

[Infixo]

I think getting less promotions is going to slow down human players.

I believe that whole XP-game-speed-scaling started with the constation of the fact that since humans are much better is preserving units than AI (although AI has improved incredibly in VP in regards of that), then you end-up having crazy op units, especially in slower game speeds, i.e. epic and especially marathon.
Ofc your point that winning the war actually takes the same amount of damage, i.e. xp gain, regardless of speed, is a valid one that noone brought up earlier. But I suppose the point is that you can simply have more wars in epic+. Especially ones that do not lead to „conclusion”. Also you can simple play the game of attrition, accumulating those xp until you beat AI more easily.
That is my understanding why slowing down xp gains make sense.
But i agree with @BiteInTheMark that due to some elements in this situation that already scale with gamespeed, perhaps the core xp scaling should not be 1:1 to gamespeed, but adjusted a little. E.g. 80% of full scaling - Epic is 150% of Normal, xp is scaled by 115%, and Marathon is 300%, so xp is scaled 240%.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

.....
Ofc your point that winning the war actually takes the same amount of damage, i.e. xp gain, regardless of speed, is a valid one that noone brought up earlier. But I suppose the point is that you can simply have more wars in epic+. Especially ones that do not lead to „conclusion”. Also you can simple play the game of attrition, accumulating those xp until you beat AI more easily.
That is my understanding why slowing down xp gains make sense.
But i agree with @BiteInTheMark that due to some elements in this situation that already scale with gamespeed, perhaps the core xp scaling should not be 1:1 to gamespeed, but adjusted a little. E.g. 80% of full scaling - Epic is 150% of Normal, xp is scaled by 115%, and Marathon is 300%, so xp is scaled 240%.

I agree, going to war in epic or marathon is much easier than in standard speed.
And the way you explain it makes sense to increase the XP requirements for lvl up one unit.
Wouldnt it be a compromise to decrease the overall damage of every attack and the healing rate by a small amount and rise the necessary XP also by a small amount? Like -10%/-25% damage/regeneration and +25%/+50% XP needed for lvl-up? This would decrease the advantage of humal players in warfare in slower game speeds and would fit more the general sense of "slower gamespeed" and soften the benefits of domination advantage in epic/marathon.

 

[tu_79]

But i agree with @BiteInTheMark that due to some elements in this situation that already scale with gamespeed, perhaps the core xp scaling should not be 1:1 to gamespeed, but adjusted a little. E.g. 80% of full scaling - Epic is 150% of Normal, xp is scaled by 115%, and Marathon is 300%, so xp is scaled 240%.

I fully agree with this idea. Now we need actual play testing from people that play at that pace for feedback. The goal is making combat difficulty comparable to the standard speed. You know Gazebo, he puts some numbers at work, then it's our duty to fine tune them.

 

[Infixo]

I fully agree with this idea. Now we need actual play testing from people that play at that pace for feedback. The goal is making combat difficulty comparable to the standard speed. You know Gazebo, he puts some numbers at work, then it's our duty to fine tune them.

In this case it is harder since there are no params. Ideally we could have a column in GameSpeeds, e.g. XPAcquisitionPercent, and problem solved - you can have it faster, slower, not changed, etc.

 

[Jarula]

I think there's an error saw the best example of AI ever. Mordorin (custom mod) sent a great general to actually bait me into a war...!

He knew all my iron was from a single mine on the border thus danced around near the mine.

GREAT job gazebo.

Marathon of course...

 

[Infixo]

Trade Route yields now scale with distance - closer routes are worth less.

Is there a reason why the land routes' range was decreased from 10 to 8?

In (1) CP:

INSERT INTO Defines(Name, Value) VALUES('TRADE_ROUTE_BASE_LAND_DISTANCE', 10);

Then in (2) CBO:

UPDATE Defines SET Value = '8' WHERE Name = 'TRADE_ROUTE_BASE_LAND_DISTANCE';

Sea routes stay at default 20.

also:

       case DOMAIN_LAND:
#if defined(MOD_TRADE_ROUTE_SCALING)
       iBaseRange = GD_INT_GET(TRADE_ROUTE_BASE_LAND_DISTANCE);
#else
       iBaseRange = 10;
#endif
       break;

 

[Jarula]

Hey Gazebo maybe there can be a hotfix to work with ynaemp

 

[Gazebo]

Hey Gazebo maybe there can be a hotfix to work with ynaemp

You keep asking about this OVER and OVER. Make a github post, don’t spam every thread with this, man. Besides, no one else seems to have this issue, so probably a local issue.

G

 

[Jarula]

Sorry not thinking did make a GitHub request and yeah other people are.

And not trying to be a pain in the ass.