New Victory Condition - Role Victory

[Bad Player]

How about a civ can win if they fufill a condition which is in specific to their civ and is thematically appropriate to their civ (a bit like Rhyes which I'd been playing...).

I chose VC's that are in line with how the AI already acts although I suspect this VC would work best in multiplayer games. I assume the programming would be minimal too (no AI changes, simple VC check each turn).

 

[Bad Player]

Amurites:
Aquire all mana types simultaneously
- Possibly too close to the tower victory?
OR Cast 500 successful offensive spells (e.g. fireball cast successfully)

Balseraphs:
Capture 100 slaves

Bannor:
Have only good civilisations in the game (i.e. destroy or convert neutral and evil civs) [edit] and destroy at least 2 non-good civs

Calabim:
Produce 100 vampiric units (Losha Valas, vampires, other units gifted vampirism) with 100XP (not necessarily at the same time)

Clan of Embers:
50 cities razed regardless of who does it

Doviello:
Be at war for a total of 300 turns

Elohim:
Have the AC below 20 for 150 consecutive turns

Grigori:
Get 50 units to 100XP

Hippus:
Pillage 1000 gold from lands you are at war with

Illians:
Have at least 50% of the world covered in snow/ice/tundra

Infernal:
?

Khazad:
Gain simultaneous access to gold, silver, copper, iron, mithril and have the highest GDP of all civs

Kuriotates:
[something to do with GDP or trade]

Lanun:
Control 80% of all ships at sea (i.e. not in cities) for 100 turns

Ljosalfar:
Have 80% of the non-mountain land in the world forested

Luchuirp:
?

Malakim:
Create and pass 25 Over- or UnderCouncil resolutions

Mercurians:
?

Sheiam:
Have the AC above 80 for 150 consecutive turns

Sidar:
Have 100 specialists in your cities (simultaneously)

Svartalfar:
Poison 100 units

 

[Pickly]

The wildmana/master of mana mod, and possibly another modmod, do this already, so checking them out for ideas may be useful.

 

[Bad Player]

lol i was too late then!? I kept hearing ppl complaining that in MP there needed to be more roleplaying so I figured that this might just do it.


EDIT: I think this would be a simple addition to the main game rather than being in quite a different playing/feeling modmod and wouldn't alter gameplay. IMO. What do other ppl think?

 

[A Moon]

Okay, I think quite a few of those are way too easy (The Bannor could win the game on turn 1!), and I personally don't really like the idea. Role-playing shouldn't be enforced like that. If I decided to play as Orcs redeemed, filling the world with peace and love, I'll still feel like the game is telling me "No! Go raze 50 cities! Raawr". Even worse, if someone/thing else should do it (Avatar of Wrath, I'm looking at you.) I'll win the game for failing to prevent it.

As for complaining that there needs to be more roleplaying in multi-player, that strikes me as something to discuss before the game starts, not to always have no matter what.

 

[Bad Player]

Good point on the Bannor, that could be the case in smaller games I suppose! I might think of something else...


VC's are selectable at game start so if you don't want roleplaying you would just uncheck the option, if this was available.

A side point to note is that if you don't like the thematic feel then you wouldn't also like thematic starting placement (e.g. Illians and Doviello in the cold, Ljosalfar in the forest, etc). Again this is sort of deselectable since you can chose not to play certain map types that encourage it IIRC.

 

[Jarrema]

Of cours, as it would be a mini-mod, only people interested in it would download it...

IMHO you should really look at victory condition in Master of Mana mode, and maybe go this way, I mean 3 quests for each civ, and victory is if youi fulfilll all of them. three little easier quests would be more interesting IMHO then one big and hard. And, as it is in MoM, there could be a small reward for fulfilling each 'partial' quest. Such small quest may be, for example, for Amurites: have four archmages with 15 levels or something like that

 

[Bad Player]

BTW One thing I want to emphasise is that those role VC's don't require reprogramming of the AI behaviour.

 

[AJ11]

I am not sure if the Bannor should be regarded as Good. They are Lawful, but from what I have seen, they tend towards Lawful Stupid. You can probably aim them at the Elohim as easily as you can at the Calabim.

To me, the best RP "win" for the Bannor is a Conquest Victory. Their civ specific civic is called Crusade, fer crying out loud...!

Remember, there is little difference between do-gooders ruling with an iron fist and a mithril sword, and evil doers ruling with an iron fist and a mithril sword. The only difference might be what you find on your menu at dinner. The former will have your parents. The latter, your children.

 

[Jarrema]

I think that Bannor fit well FfH definition of 'good' which is not exactly the same as, for example, in standard D&D game.

IIRC do-gooders and evildoers in FfH may rule the same way, but first are opposing demons, and later are helping them.

 

[AJ11]

I think that Bannor fit well FfH definition of 'good' which is not exactly the same as, for example, in standard D&D game.

IIRC do-gooders and evildoers in FfH may rule the same way, but first are opposing demons, and later are helping them.

I really don't see Arendel or the Lurchirp actively going after demons. Many of the Good leaders are described as innocent or kindly or compassionate or selfless and the like. The exception are the Mercurians and the Bannor.

In fact, I would go as far as to suggest that Empyrean should have the auto-Good function and the Order the auto-non-Evil function. To use the DnD terms, the Order is Lawful (any), Empyrean is NG, Fellowship is N, Runes is LN, Octupi is CN, Ash is CE and Council is NE.

The demon vs angel thing (represented by Hyborem vs Basium) is more CE vs LE. Remember that it is specifically stated that Basium does NOT have compassion or love or anything like that cut into his flesh.

 

[Jarrema]

Yes, in DnD terms it is correct.
But in FfH terms, Order is more 'good' than Empyrian.
And Basium is GOOD. In FfH compassion or love is NOT needed to be counted as good

I was not exact about 'demons', but in FfH 'good' is defined as anti-evil, not good per se

Cited from Magister Cultuum:

Evil are the gods who rebel against the One and seek to harm humanity. Good are the ones who fight Evil and try to protect humanity. Neutral are the ones who stay out of the conflict and stick to their original purpose. Still, the line between good and neutral is mostly man made, and can be unclear at times.

In FfH Good is mostly defined by being opposed to evil, not by the ethics of the leader. While Cassiel is one of the most ethical leaders, he is the least fanatical or partisan one.

Oter relevant IMHO thing, cited from Kael:

Yeah the classic argument about who is "gooder", Basium or Cassiel.

Basium considers himself good, in fact he thinks he is the brave hero of creation, willing to sacrifice everything to deal with creations greatest enemy. The Mercurians, the people and angels that follow him certainly share that view. He is certainly sacrificing, brave and devoted to his task (which, if you assume the Veil has no redeeming qualities is a good task).

But if you define goodliness by compassion alone Basium falls woefully short. What alignment does that make him? Its a more complex question that D&D's simple alignment system will allow us. But thats part of the blurry ethical lines we love to play with in FfH.

And what I loved to have in my D&D games, there was rarely a "right" and wrong" side. Even Tebryn and the Sheaim, attemtping to destroy the world. Sounds like a particuarlly classic bad guy. Until the characters full story came out, at the pinnacle fo the players battle against him they find out that he is their creation. A friend who fell into internal torment because of their failure, who was doing this just to escape that punishment. And the players were put in the position to stop him, and therefor eternally enforce the punishment they themselves caused. Of course they still carried out their task, but the morale implications were a major theme of the campaign.

Cassiel has withdrawn. He isn't particarly compasionate, but he isn't uncompassionate. He philosophy values personal freedom and independance, as long as that personal freedom doesnt include a religious conviction. Basium would say he is a coward, Cassiel would say Basium is no different than those he fights against. You may agree with one or the other, but its hard to place any sort of objective good/neutral or evil against either.

 

[Bad Player]

I wrote this thread more to discuss if ppl think it would be a good addition to the current (selectable) victory conditions of the game.

 

[Jarrema]

ok
sorry
back to subject:
IMHO good idea, but needs A LOT of work, and better if such victory condition was built from 3-4 'pieces'

 

[Estelindis]

Fine, but why not just adapt the epic destiny victory conditions from Wild Mana? Or, alternatively, just play Wild Mana and save yourself some trouble.

 

[Bad Player]

Back off topic though - it seems the good civs are into truthfulness and honour but the evil civs are into lies and deceit. c.f. Hyborem, Bhall, Undercouncil versus Overcouncil and some other stuff. Although Rantine's story suggests the humans (good??) were deceitful while he was truthful.

 

[Tasunke]

I'll have a go at my own version of Civ Historical Victories.

Calabim -> 1 city pop 25 or higher, 1 soldier killing 500 enemies (by himself, not via spectres or other magic), 3 soldiers to 200 exp

Grigori -> all dungeons and lairs on the map have been explored, an adventurer exploring at least 3 lairs, Never run Nationhood, Military State, or Conquest. Spawn 3 adventurers. Capture or Kill Acheron.

Bannor -> Order in every (non barbarian) city, eradicate Veil and Octopus Overlords completely, kill at least 3 civs while using the Crusade civic.

Amurites -> have, among your magical units, at least one promotion per magic element OR build one of the towers. Have a mage guild in each city. Have at least six level 8 arcane units. Have 1 archmage-level unit with two Element-3 spell promotions.

Sheiam -> Have a planar gate in each city. Be the one to summon Hyborem. Own the Ashen Veil holy city. Own Prophecy of Ragnarok. Get the AC to 100 at least once.

Illians -> Kill Luichurp and Amurites if on the map. For each that is not on the map, kill a random civ. Summon Auric Ascended. Temple of the Hand in all (of your) Illian cities.

Hippus -> Build 50 Horse Archers, collect 2500 gold from pillaging, kill or vassal 3 civs. Have the highest power at turn 200 quick speed(not counting fake-power from Hybo and Bassie).

Luchurip -> have at least one city with all Golem buffing buildings. Kill Illians if on map, else kill 1 evil civ, else build 3 wonders. Get Barnaxus to level 6 at least once. Have 200 golems {at turn of victory}not including mud golems. Have at least one Golem buffing building in each city.

Khazad -> Have Overflowing vaults, have at least 5 cities. At least one of the Rune Heroes must be alive and in your possession, else ally yourself with, or destroy/vassalize, 1 civ that did build a Runes Hero. Be the first to research Currency, Mathematics, and Blasting Powder.

Mercurian -> Ashen Veil is completely eradicated. Raze all cities that have even a small taint of Ashen Veil in them. (don't capture a city that has Veil in it). Always be at war with any civ with the Veil state religion. Kill at least one civ. Have 1 angel with at least 100 exp. Never accept vassalage from a Veil following civ, always destroy to the last city. Research "Righteousness" (may not necessarily need to be the first to do so).

Hyborem -> AC is at least 50 (at time of victory). All land tiles reach hell terrain status at least once. 50%+ current land tiles are hell terrain (at time of victory). Do not completely kill off any evil civ. Have at least 3 vassals. Ashen Veil in at least 50% of cities. Be first to complete the tech tree. Be highest in Power. Declare war on each non-vassalized civ at least once. Own 5 entropy mana.

Elohim -> Summon Basium if Hyborem is summoned, Else build 3 wonders. Hyborem must be declared war on at least once. AC may not reach 100. Sheaim must be declared war on at least once. Do not declare war on any "Good" civ. Do not raze ANY cities. Found at least one religion. Have at least one city with Legendary culture. Control all Unique Features on the map.

Malakim -> Have the most votes in the overcouncil. Be the first civ to adopt the Overcouncil. Found the empyrean. Control at least 3 incense sources(if there are at least 3 on map, if not, controll them all). Control at least 3 Oases (if there are at least 3 on map, if not, control them all). control at least 50% of the map's desert terrain (if any). Build at least 10 Camel Archers. Control at least 3 sun mana. Create at least 1 great prophet.

Sidar -> Kill at least 3 enemy heroes. Protect any non-evil civ from acts of aggression by evil civs (declare war on any evil civ that war deccs a non evil civ). Build at least 10 ghosts. Have at least 5 settled Great People. Destroy any civ that actively uses Death Magic. Own the Great Library. Own the Catacombs libralus, or be allied to one who does.

Doviello -> Kill at least 1 civ, Lucian gets at least 50 kills or dies trying. Always be at war with at least one civ, else declare war on the first/next civ you meet. Survives until turn 100. (quick-speed)

Kuriotates -> 3 cities to size 20+. Have at least 4 religions and their temples in each city. Be on the Overcouncil. only declare war against evil civs. Open borders with everyone who asks (unless evil). Build 3 wonders. Build Eurabatres and get him to level 10. (Once Eurabatres is built, war dec limits are off, may declare war on anyone-> Eurabatres is in control now ... rather forcibly). Eurabatres must not die.

Lanun -> Own 20 coastal cities. Make 1000 gold through blockades. Be the first to research Astronomy. Have at least 50 Ships (not counting workboats).

Svartalphar -> Build 20 assassins. Build 10 Nyxin. Destroy Ljosalphar if on the map. Capture all Ljosalphar cities (if on the map). If not, then destroy or vassalize at least 1 civ. Kidnap at least 1 great person, else kill or vassalize at least a second civ. Be the first to research Poisons, be the first to research Deception. Kill 20 soldiers with Hidden Nationality units.

Ljos -> Capture all Svart cities, if on map. Else destroy or vassalize at least 1 civ. Plant at least 50 trees (cast bloom 50+ times). Declare war on at least one non-FOL follower (preferably AV, Esus, or Runes). Own the Holy city of FoL. Be the first to research Bowyers. Be the first to research Feral Bond. Have the highest GNP (or is it GDP).

Orcs -> If bannor on the map, destroy bannor, or at least capture(or raze) 5 bannor cities. Else capture/raze at least 10 enemy cities. Have an army of at least 100 non mounted, non naval, non siege, military units. Kill or vassalize at least one civ. Build a warrens in every city. Capture or Defend Acheron. (Acheron must not die). Be allied with any civ that has captured Acheron (UHV is lost if Acheron dies). Own Orthus's Axe.

Perpentach -> Dominate 10 units. Build 50 lunatics. Control 4 mind mana. Build Tower of Eyes, Eyes and Ears Network, and Tower of Alteration. Capture 20 slaves through combat (cumulative, slaves may be used). Be the first to research Carnivals/Festivals. Flip at least 1 city with Loki.

Keelyn -> Kill 50 units with summoned pitbeasts. Kill 10 units with summoned Balors. Vassalize Hyborem or Capture all his cities (no razing). Research Malevolent Designs. Have 20 arcane units with either entropy, shadow, death, or Chaos promotions. Kill at least 5 units in the Arenas.

 

[Jarrema]

Grigori -> all dungeons and lairs on the map have been explored, an adventurer exploring at least 3 lairs, always use pacifism, never use godking, and eradicate all good and evil civs from the world ... including Hyborem and Basium as non exceptions (even if neutral alignment).

I do not think Cassiel is so blood thirsty that he wants to do that

Generally, a lot of interesting ideas; I only do not like those 'never do something'. I prefer 'quest-like' ideas, where you can point the exact moment of fulfiling them. As I said before, I like if there is 3 independent elements. Your ideas for Bannors are good example: 1. Order in every city. 2. No AV and OO. 3. Destroy 3 civs during crusade.
Every element may have its own small reward.
I also do not like much ideas with 'if': if Luchouirp are on the map, destroy them. There would be need for: what if not?
Like something that: Kill Luichurp if on the map. Kill Amurites if on the map. Kill Grigori if on the map. If any of this civs is not on the map, kill one other civ, for a total of 3.

 

[Tasunke]

thanks for the feedback. I will attempt to revise some of the conditions.



Revised quite a few of them, take a look.

 

[Tielby]

Sidar -> Kill at least 3 enemy heroes. Protect any non-evil civ from acts of aggression by evil civs (declare war on any evil civ that war deccs a non evil civ). Build at least 10 ghosts. Have at least 5 settled Great People. Destroy any civ that actively uses Death Magic. Own the Great Library. Own the Catacombs libralus, or be allied to one who does.

Forgive my ignorance, but lore-wise, what is the connection between Sidar and the Great Library and Catacombs Libralus? The latter is more associated with (preferred by) the Amurites in the game, IIRC.

Doviello -> Kill at least 1 civ, Lucian gets at least 50 kills or dies trying. Always be at war with at least one civ, else declare war on the first/next civ you meet. Survives until turn 100.

Kuriotates -> 3 cities to size 20+. Have at least 4 religions and their temples in each city. Be on the Overcouncil. only declare war against evil civs. Open borders with everyone who asks (unless evil). Build 3 wonders. Survive to turn 250.

Kuriotates (controlled by AI) usually does very well in my games, so that last condition seems like a gimme to me. Is that different than your experience?

Ljos -> Capture all Svart cities, if on map. Else destroy or vassalize at least 1 civ. Plant at least 50 trees (cast bloom 50+ times). Declare war on at least one follower of Runes, else declare war on at least one non-FOL follower. Own the Holy city of FoL. Be the first to research Bowyers. Be the first to research Feral Bond. Have the highest GNP (or is it GDP).

Again, forgive my lore ignorance, but why is FoL (or at least the Ljos) violently opposed to RoK? Alignment-wise, they're both neutral...ish.