Newbie just can't win on Warlord level

[Rocker69]

Hi, I know my way around Civ III and just started on Civ IV: Beyond The Sword a month ago.

I've attached my current game. As you can see I have a small coastal Portuguese empire. I've opted for not so many cities so that I could focus on improvements. It didn't really work out, as you can see by my score.

So I wanted to get rid of the Chinese so I could spread my empire on their lands. And their closest city was Beijing. It didn't have that many units so I waited to have 10 catapults to destroy their defenses and I went for it.

I did win and destroyed their city. And I immediately built a town on it's place. But as soon as I did it the Chinese spread a lot of units around me and they were relentless. Eventually they won and took over my newly built city.

So the game here attached is when I was waiting for the rest of my catapults to invade China. I don't know what went wrong...I mean, I had a lot of units. Does that mean that I'm going to have to have around 50-60 units ready before I engage in war? It seems almost impossible to win. Sorry bout the long post.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I have a small coastal Portuguese empire.

In your next game, fix this.

General goal:
#1 in land
#1 in military
#1 in GNP
by 1 AD.

 

[Rocker69]

In your next game, fix this.

General goal:
#1 in land
#1 in military
#1 in GNP
by 1 AD.

Ha ha...but what do you mean, what was the problem? Was it the small, the Portuguese or the coastal?

 

[Orzio]

Screenshots will often get you way more help than posting a save since moste people cant/dont have time/dont want to open saves.

 

[azbestor]

By my unexperienced eye that game is screwed. To tackle China you need production and technology. By that time you really shouldn't attack with swords and cats. And you doesn't teching,like you should. On top of that you can't get away without culture slider,which means more c.slider after you start fighting,which will undercut your research. Why are you building castle in Lisbon? Another knight or something will do better. Before starting a war I would wait for Trebuchets,as they are better at taking a city.
To successfully hold Beijing (or it's replacement) you need to pillage roads around it,bring in anti-type soldiers in large quantity (I mean few xbows,few pikes and some general defensive forces,like longbows and muskets) and nice stack of knights,so you would be able to destroy their artillery before it will cripple your defenders. Knights will be dying to china pikes,but hopefully will do some flanking damage to arty. After initial wave of attack it will be much easier to sustain their attacks.

 

[Rocker69]

By my unexperienced eye that game is screwed. To tackle China you need production and technology. By that time you really shouldn't attack with swords and cats. And you doesn't teching,like you should. On top of that you can't get away without culture slider,which means more c.slider after you start fighting,which will undercut your research. Why are you building castle in Lisbon? Another knight or something will do better. Before starting a war I would wait for Trebuchets,as they are better at taking a city.
To successfully hold Beijing (or it's replacement) you need to pillage roads around it,bring in anti-type soldiers in large quantity (I mean few xbows,few pikes and some general defensive forces,like longbows and muskets) and nice stack of knights,so you would be able to destroy their artillery before it will cripple your defenders. Knights will be dying to china pikes,but hopefully will do some flanking damage to arty. After initial wave of attack it will be much easier to sustain their attacks.

Ok, but WHEN is the right time to attack? I realize now that Warlord is very, very different from Chieftain...the problem is, if I wait too long to attack, their army will be just as big as mine, if not bigger. That's why I attacked in the first place. And I chose China because Egypt, another neighbor of mine, was #1 in the score, so I figured it would be a much harder opponent.

 

[Windsor]

Ha ha...but what do you mean, what was the problem? Was it the small, the Portuguese or the coastal?

It was the small part. Some comments:

- It's very good that you are working improved tiles. Still, I belive you should be able to both get more cities AND be able to work improved tiles.
- You are building a lot of things "just because you can". You even managed to build both the pyramids(enables all goverment civics) and the schwedagon paya(enables all religious civic) without changing civics!
- Lisbon have a grassland cow. At the very beginning of a game, always look at what food resource you have and improve it ASAP!
- 5 city is a bit to few. In addition to that, your cities should be bigger. Have you checked if you can trade for resources?
- To get enough cities I propose this rule:

You are not allowed to build anything else than a monument, a granary and warriors, axes and chariots until you have 10 cities. Before a settler is built you must always build a worker. If a city at size2 or more is working an unimproved tile that city must build a worker. When you have 10 cities, at least 4 should be cities which you think can be good science cities and at least 3 should be cities you think will be a good production city.

About the war. It's possible to win, but you have one problem: When the AI builds castles(available at engineering), bombardment takes very long time. If you can't manage to get 8 trebuchet with the accuracy promotion(City Raider - Accuracy, with theocracy and a barracks your there) in addition to 3 suicide trebs per city wait until gunpowder based units, and cannons.

And don't raze cities where you actually want to have a city! Capitals should in genral not be razed.

 

[_Tiberius_]

First, you should get the BUG mod, which really helps in a lot of ways. One of those ways is that it shows you on the scoreboard how powerful someone is in relation to you. It has nothing to do with the score.

Second, the medieval era probably isn't the best time to attack China, just because they get their UU (the Cho-Ko-Nu). It's completely ridiculous since it gets a whole bunch of first strikes, plus the first strikes from China's protective bonus. It's possible to beat him, but you'll need a lot of trebuchets. What I would do is see if any of your neighbors can be bribed to go to war with China first, that way his troops are distracted. Then go in with at least 3-5 trebs per city that you want to attack, plus normal troops like knights, macemen, and longbowmen to protect the stack. That should (hopefully) be enough to take his cities down. The more trebs you have though, the better, since they can really tear through a defender's strength.

 

[Rocker69]

It was the small part. Some comments:

- It's very good that you are working improved tiles. Still, I belive you should be able to both get more cities AND be able to work improved tiles.
- You are building a lot of things "just because you can". You even managed to build both the pyramids(enables all goverment civics) and the schwedagon paya(enables all religious civic) without changing civics!
- Lisbon have a grassland cow. At the very beginning of a game, always look at what food resource you have and improve it ASAP!
- 5 city is a bit to few. In addition to that, your cities should be bigger. Have you checked if you can trade for resources?
- To get enough cities I propose this rule:

You are not allowed to build anything else than a monument, a granary and warriors, axes and chariots until you have 10 cities. Before a settler is built you must always build a worker. If a city at size2 or more is working an unimproved tile that city must build a worker. When you have 10 cities, at least 4 should be cities which you think can be good science cities and at least 3 should be cities you think will be a good production city.

About the war. It's possible to win, but you have one problem: When the AI builds castles(available at engineering), bombardment takes very long time. If you can't manage to get 8 trebuchet with the accuracy promotion(City Raider - Accuracy, with theocracy and a barracks your there) in addition to 3 suicide trebs per city wait until gunpowder based units, and cannons.

And don't raze cities where you actually want to have a city! Capitals should in genral not be razed.

That's some really great advice, thanks! I am a wonder hog, as you noticed. Sometimes I get tired of all the micromanagement and I tend to go with what the AI is advising me...and I tend to enjoy having a big culture score, that's why I build so many things.

Here's my problem: I don't like to open borders and I don't like to trade techs. In this particular game it was decided by the wonder-I-don't-remember-the-name that every empire should open borders, which I don't think it was a very good idea. And I only trade resources when some other empire suggests it. I hate trading techs because I assume that the AI will have some advantage over me.


I do usually raze cities because I'm afraid that, due to cultural problems, local citizens will try a takeover. So I raze them. In the case of Beijing I should have thought about it.

But now I ask you: what was my main mistake? Not expanding enough early in tha game? Building unnecessary buildings?

 

[JBossch]

First of all, why would you raze an enemy capital and rebuild the city? Beijing probably had a lot of buildings and pop so you wouldnt have had to start from scratch.

I think what VoU is trying to say is that if you are struggling on Warlord (a difficulty on which the AI is handicapped in your favor) your problems are more fundamental than the kind of thing that can be fixed with specific prescriptions. I mean no offense by this, many newbie posters do the same thing.

I would encourage you to start a new game, post it and ask for advice. Also, there are tons of sample games on this forum to look at. Try Orion's Home School. It's a series on Noble (which you should move up to, imo).

 

[Rocker69]

First, you should get the BUG mod, which really helps in a lot of ways. One of those ways is that it shows you on the scoreboard how powerful someone is in relation to you. It has nothing to do with the score.

Second, the medieval era probably isn't the best time to attack China, just because they get their UU (the Cho-Ko-Nu). It's completely ridiculous since it gets a whole bunch of first strikes, plus the first strikes from China's protective bonus. It's possible to beat him, but you'll need a lot of trebuchets. What I would do is see if any of your neighbors can be bribed to go to war with China first, that way his troops are distracted. Then go in with at least 3-5 trebs per city that you want to attack, plus normal troops like knights, macemen, and longbowmen to protect the stack. That should (hopefully) be enough to take his cities down. The more trebs you have though, the better, since they can really tear through a defender's strength.

I will get the BUG mod, it's exactly what I need, thanks.

I did convice Egypt to go to war with China once I declared war on them, because since they are currently the #1 empire I thought it would help me. It didn't. They didn't help me at all, I saw maybe one or two of their units during my battle for Beijing.

What I did realize, at this point, is that most of my units at this particular point are becoming obsolete. Maybe that's the problem. And my strongest unit by far was the Knight. That's my personal problem with CIV IV, it gets to a point where almost all units are useless. If I had a stack of 10-15 Knights it would be much better than having a stack of Knights+Macemen+Crossbowmen+Pikemen. That's just wrong.

 

[Rocker69]

First of all, why would you raze an enemy capital and rebuild the city? Beijing probably had a lot of buildings and pop so you wouldnt have had to start from scratch.

I think what VoU is trying to say is that if you are struggling on Warlord (a difficulty on which the AI is handicapped in your favor) your problems are more fundamental than the kind of thing that can be fixed with specific prescriptions. I mean no offense by this, many newbie posters do the same thing.

I would encourage you to start a new game, post it and ask for advice. Also, there are tons of sample games on this forum to look at. Try Orion's Home School. It's a series on Noble (which you should move up to, imo).

No offense taken. I was doing fine in Chieftain that's why I decided to move on to Warlord. But it's very different from Chieftain.

I will look for Orion's and I will post a new game. Things is, I love CIV but I wanna have fun first and foremost. If I choose a high difficulty level at this point I will probably get stressed out and not have fun at all lol.

 

[JBossch]

I will get the BUG mod, it's exactly what I need, thanks.

I did convice Egypt to go to war with China once I declared war on them, because since they are currently the #1 empire I thought it would help me. It didn't. They didn't help me at all, I saw maybe one or two of their units during my battle for Beijing.

What I did realize, at this point, is that most of my units at this particular point are becoming obsolete. Maybe that's the problem. And my strongest unit by far was the Knight. That's my personal problem with CIV IV, it gets to a point where almost all units are useless. If I had a stack of 10-15 Knights it would be much better than having a stack of Knights+Macemen+Crossbowmen+Pikemen. That's just wrong.

Again, I really think you are missing the point. The answer to your problem isn't "build a knight, not a crossbow," its more like "settle more land than opponents, work improved tiles." With a more fundamentally sound empire you will be able to easily outpace the AIs, allowing you to field far more advanced units than them if and when you decide war is necessary.

 

[Rocker69]

Again, I really think you are missing the point. The answer to your problem isn't "build a knight, not a crossbow," its more like "settle more land than opponents, work improved tiles." With a more fundamentally sound empire you will be able to easily outpace the AIs, allowing you to field far more advanced units than them if and when you decide war is necessary.

I get your point, I just think that it's pathetic that I have all these different units to build and the only one reliable is the Knight.

 

[Sian]

going to pick stuff out :

I don't like to open borders

why? ... theres no bad things about open borders (... well ... there 'could' be, but thats very unlikely to be relevant before Immortal), only good things such as better trade rutes which means a better economy ... the AI doesn't settle behind you unless forced to (ie. no other place to settle) and even then its a cointoss weather they even consider it, and you can always close the borders at no negatives, expect less trading

I don't like to trade techs

At your level you get a net profit from trading with an AI since they use relatively more beakers to research a tech than you does ... futhermore, try trading the same tech to as many as possable, and then count what you got from that tech in all, instead of from each AI ... this and knowing which techs is usual good trade bait (nothing you need to know to get around before at least monarch) is what keep peoples in the Tech race (or even beyond) when we're talking Monarch+

And I only trade resources when some other empire suggests it

Look at what you have (and more speficicly, don't have) and try to get what you don't have (Happyness or Health) ... true, both you and the AI gets something out of it, but you should have the brains to get out better, specially if you trade to them what they don't need, while getting what you need ... which early game often is trading your health resouce for their happyness resouce.

---

In general it sounds like you're playing far to passive, just sitting around waiting on things to happen and if need be damagecontroling. Instead of actively working towards positive things to happen and nipping problems at the bud

 

[Windsor]

That's some really great advice, thanks! I am a wonder hog, as you noticed. Sometimes I get tired of all the micromanagement and I tend to go with what the AI is advising me...and I tend to enjoy having a big culture score, that's why I build so many things.

Wonders are not what you build when you don't know what to build. You should only build wonders if you are very certain why you want it.

If you don't know what you want, build a unit.

Here's my problem: I don't like to open borders and I don't like to trade techs. In this particular game it was decided by the wonder-I-don't-remember-the-name that every empire should open borders, which I don't think it was a very good idea. And I only trade resources when some other empire suggests it. I hate trading techs because I assume that the AI will have some advantage over me.

What do you think happens when everyone else open borders with eachother and trade techs and resources? Take a look at the real world. Which countries progress? Trade is a good thing!

I do usually raze cities because I'm afraid that, due to cultural problems, local citizens will try a takeover. So I raze them. In the case of Beijing I should have thought about it.

The cultural problems comes from neighbouring cities. Instead of razing, capture the neighbouring cities too

But now I ask you: what was my main mistake? Not expanding enough early in tha game? Building unnecessary buildings?

Not expanding enough was the biggest, the unnecessary buildings/wonders the second.

 

[Sian]

acutally ... about cultural value of cities ...

Cities only contribute to tiles, but the tiles themselves (without directly looking at which person built/owns the city) chooses how the cutural aspect of the surroundings look like

There is only 2 reasons (which together covers about 99% of the ground on the issue) to raze cities: Badly placed or to expensive to keep due to maintainence, or being pluck in the center of enemy territory (for which you could ask the question why taking that and not one closer in the first palce)

 

[JBossch]

I get your point, I just think that it's pathetic that I have all these different units to build and the only one reliable is the Knight.

Thats not at all accurate for a lot of reasons. Stick with the fundamentals and the more advanced aspects of unit dynamics will come eventually.

try trading the same tech to as many as possable, and then count what you got from that tech in all, instead of from each AI

This is true but there is a more fundamental advantage to trading techs, even if only trading one tech at a disadvantageous rate; ie. the tech you get is worth less beakers: The trade always advances you relative to the AIs not involved in the trade. Assuming standard map, 6 AI opponents, this is a big help. A lot of newbs fail to see this and think they are always losing by trading techs. In fact, intelligently trading techs is the single most important specific advantage the human has over the AI and absolutely crucial to surviving on high levels.

 

[Rocker69]

A lot of newbs fail to see this and think they are always losing by trading techs. In fact, intelligently trading techs is the single most important specific advantage the human has over the AI and absolutely crucial to surviving on high levels.

Then what signify as "intelligently trading techs"? Not really sure (no irony whatsoever)

 

[mjf200]

What I did realize, at this point, is that most of my units at this particular point are becoming obsolete. Maybe that's the problem. And my strongest unit by far was the Knight. That's my personal problem with CIV IV, it gets to a point where almost all units are useless. If I had a stack of 10-15 Knights it would be much better than having a stack of Knights+Macemen+Crossbowmen+Pikemen. That's just wrong.

What game speed are you playing at? playing at epic or marathon slows the game down and your army does not become obsolete as fast. That's one of the main reasons I like to play at the slower speeds.

I don't think anyone mentioned this yet about open borders. Yes, you should do it for the reasons stated but also before you declare war you can send one of your units into their land and see what they have, what kind of units, how many, how many cities, where is their main stack. That intel is very important for planning a war.
It sounds like you went in and didn't know what you were up against, but don't get discouraged, you'll soon look back and see how easy this diff level was.

few other tips you might not know, holding down ALT and hover the mouse over a unit you are going to attack and it shows your odds of winning the battle, your units strength and theirs. Attacking from across a river gives the defender an advantage, so try to avoid doing this when possible, especially when attacking a city.

The BUG is great also. makes the info in the game so much easier to get!