jarred!
King
Care to post a save?
Newbie to Civ 3. Numerous Questions for perfecting early game play
- Thread starter ArenE
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tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
*Pssst*
Civ III autosaves are uncompressed; manual saves are usually about 75-80% smaller (100-250 kB, rather than >1 MB). Not that it really matters in terms of download speed these days, but uploading autosaves does take up that much extra space on the CFC-server(s).
For uploading, it's better to reload an autosave(s) and then resave it as a manual save.
Did not know that, Thank you! Please see the new attached files.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
This has also happened to me (losing my FP-town to a flip), but not for a long time. And yes, it sucks, but there's some lessons there!Also: I had conquered pi-ramses Egyptian city, build temple in 2 turn, built forbidden palace in 1 turn and controlled for 5 turns. Population was reduced to 5 and forgot to reduce population further. When I moved by horseman out, they revolted and became Egyptian again. Even though I had read the article that there was 1 instance of FB palace and revolt, I forgot and it happened to me as well.
First, try and (pre)build your FP sooner and closer, preferably in one of your own towns. IIRC, on a Standard map, the "Optimal City Number" (OCN) set in the Editor = 20, so you'll get the prompt to build the FP once you found — or capture — your 10th town (altogether).
Spoiler So ideally... :
Third, newly built Cultural buildings in a single (captured) town will rarely/never outweigh an AI-Civ's accumulated total Culture and, depending on the town's original founding date, may/will take a (very) long time to match the Culture accumulated by that town under the original owner (and Cultural-output of any building also doubles after 1000 years — or only 20-25T, during the first part of the game).
Spoiler Case in point... :
If the only Coal is on the other Continent, you might want to consider gifting/selling techs to the owners, up to SteamPower, so they can sell 'their' Coal — to you.
Or — if you're far enough ahead of them, tech-wise — just invading them and taking it
Is this still the Chinese game you posted the screenie of over the weekend?
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I took a look at your 1255 AD save. Those 'few dark areas' cover a significant part of the map, including an entire civilization. I don't want to spoil anything, but I will say that there's more coal on the map. Buy Smokey's world and territory maps for a small lump sum of gold, then use your boats to establish contact with all of the remaining civs. This will open up trade opportunities. You may or may not be able to buy coal, but it will open up something.
No. I restarted because I wanted I had made several mistakes on that one that I decided to restart and try to keep my cheating to a minimum, since I still am not building enough mil units before starting a war (then I complain to myself that AI is unfair knowing that is how AI is - I hate losing even a single unit
(I know I need to get over it
)).I don't now how to show/hide spoiler so I am trying to be discreet in my wording. What is the advantage of it in 1st and 2nd ring? I thought you wanted it to be far enough away to make more cities be productive.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
In Conquests, the FP doesn't strictly "act as a second Palace" to create a second 'core' like it used to in Vanilla/PtW.
What it does now is to vastly reduce the corruption (distance-from-Palace component? @justanick will know!) of the one town where it's built, and it also somewhat increases the total number of relatively non-corrupt towns you can build/own. But it has little to no direct effect on the towns nearest to it, beyond the above 2 effects (i.e. if you 1-turn it in the boonies, its nearest neighbours will likely remain 90% corrupt).
Since the FP-town will likely be your second-best town, and because you want the corruption-reducing effects to start as early as possible, then if you're going to hand-build it, it's best to do so relatively close to your capital, where shield-wastage is low.
If you build it further away than 2nd-ring on a Standard map, you will likely need a Courthouse first, just to get sufficient SPT to build the FP reasonably quickly. Not to mention that starting to build your 3rd-ring implies that the AI-Civ(s) have left you with enough space to do so -- which is unlikely to be the case on a fully populated Emp+ map!
NB My unspoken assumption here is that you're founding towns using relatively tight Cx(x)xC placement, rather than so called 'optimal' CxxxxC placement, i.e. "1st-ring" in this context would be 2-3 tiles away from your Palace, and "2nd-ring" would be 4-6 tiles away.
Answering the first question second (and assuming that you're accessing CFC through a standard web-browser):
Look at the toolbar above the 'New post' box. You see the (insert-)smilie icon to the middle right? The 4th icon in that subsection allows you to manually Insert:
Spoiler :
Code:
programming-code,Just select the text you want to apply the tags to, and then click on the appropriate item in that little drop-down menu.
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Indeed. The net effect amounts to about 10 shields(and commerce, too) per turn for your entire empire. So that is a nice to have, but nothing one should waste a leader for. Simply building it by regular means in the first or second ring is wise.
Makes sense. Then what do you guys use early military leaders on?
Also I have been thinking of adjusting my early research priorities. Currently, 4000 BC and I am researching Alphabet and bee-lining to philosophy with Republic the goal from free tech. I usually trade all tech to the 1 or 2 AI's I meet early to obtain other early techs including writing. Then during medieval times go directly to chivalry (if I have Iron and horses) followed by bee-line to military tradition. I don't usually build great library (even though I know it to be a great wonder for higher than emperor but not much benefit on Monarch to my way of thinking). By the time I have reached military tradition I am doing ~ 4T and find myself forced to research education making great library obsolete (that is why don't bother with it on monarch). What do you guys prioritize? The reason I am asking is I find republic not as useful by 1000 BC (great for everything but I run into unit limits quickly and have to disband all my warriors) since my cities have not grown enough. So may be if I try to get literature --> currency and then bee-line to republic? But if AI get philosophy then I am out of free Republic!
Please let me know what do you guys usually do that early?
This probably won't come as a surprise, but: Armies. Even a sword army can wreck an AI civ, if used properly.
I try not to trade Writing until I have to, because Writing is the gate to both CoL and Philosophy. Once the AI gets Writing, it can jump straight to Philo, which could cost me the Republic slingshot. That usually means that I appear to fall behind in tech until later in the AA. That said, I can usually hold off the AI until I can get WC &/or BW.
I'll trade for Chivalry, but it's rarely a priority for my own research. I'd almost just head straight for MT. Knights are 70 shields for 4 attack, IIRC. That's not a great bargain in the "shields spent per attack point" category.
Unit support for Rep is 1/3/4, so the sweet spot for that is size 7-12 cities. You won't get above 12 until much later in the game, but you can rock along with a bunch of size 7+ cities for a good long while. That's one of several reasons that settling on fresh water is so important. No need to build an aqueduct, city already prepped to jump to size 7, and a commerce bonus. What's not to love?
My republics also suffer from 'growing pains' a lot of the time, so there may be better places to turn to advice than me.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
I see I'm now X-posting with @Aabraxan, but like all great Masterminds, I've started so I'll finish!
But remember, under Republic, as soon as a town grows to a city (Pop7), you get free support for 3 units. IIRC, you also get some (+1?) extra Commerce from the city-tile (even if not Commercial).
So your priority should be to get all your core-towns to at least Pop7 ASAP, even if growth is then necessarily slowed down (e.g. by making the 7th citizen a Scientist, and/or working low-food, high-shield tiles). A decent core of your capital plus 6-7 1st-ring cities would support 28-32 free units. Adding a 2nd-ring of, say, 8-10 towns gives you ~40 total free units to play with, going up to ~60-70 free units as those towns are also brought up to Pop7.
So once you're free of the Despot-penalty, convert Grassland-mines to irrigation for more FPT, mine Hills for more SPT, use those shields to build (Courthouses and) Aqueducts in dry towns, and raise the LUX%-slider as needed to maintain order. If you don't have enough Workers to get those tile-improvement jobs done quickly, then that's something else to think about.
Also, yes, disbanding obsolete Warriors is sensible, especially if you now have the ability to build Swords. Upgrading at 60g per head is usually still too expensive at that stage, but building from scratch shouldn't take >6 turns per unit, even in your weaker towns. And since you get no military-police effect under Republic, there's not a lot of point leaving rWarriors garrisoned anywhere — but especially not in towns which aren't at any imminent risk of being attacked. Try and make sure those couple of disband-shields go into something useful though (like a Court or 'Duct!).
Your budget should then easily be able to cover any additional units needed for further expansion (peaceful or conquest, depending on circumstances).
Then I trade the Republic-prereqs around for as many Ancient techs as I can get, and aim for Currency (good trade-bait if you can beat the AI to it), or Construction for 'Ducts if I need them badly (those 2 are usually the last obligatory Ancient techs I acquire — though they probably shouldn't be), and Lit for Libraries, if I can't get it by trading (but I usually can).
Medieval research depends on whether I want to go scientific (beeline Education for Unis) or need to go military (beeline MilTrad for Cavs). Either way, I'll trade for techs on the other beeline as far as I can. I'll take Chiv in trade if I'm offered it, but I usually won't research it myself.
Armies, of course! Building an Army and winning a battle with it unlocks Heroic Epic, which improves the chance of spawning additional MGLs. Having had a victorious Army (at some point in your Civ's history) is also a prereq for building MilAcad later.
If your civ isn't providing enough income to cope with your military support, yes, that's usually a problem of growth (towns too small).
But remember, under Republic, as soon as a town grows to a city (Pop7), you get free support for 3 units. IIRC, you also get some (+1?) extra Commerce from the city-tile (even if not Commercial).
So your priority should be to get all your core-towns to at least Pop7 ASAP, even if growth is then necessarily slowed down (e.g. by making the 7th citizen a Scientist, and/or working low-food, high-shield tiles). A decent core of your capital plus 6-7 1st-ring cities would support 28-32 free units. Adding a 2nd-ring of, say, 8-10 towns gives you ~40 total free units to play with, going up to ~60-70 free units as those towns are also brought up to Pop7.
So once you're free of the Despot-penalty, convert Grassland-mines to irrigation for more FPT, mine Hills for more SPT, use those shields to build (Courthouses and) Aqueducts in dry towns, and raise the LUX%-slider as needed to maintain order. If you don't have enough Workers to get those tile-improvement jobs done quickly, then that's something else to think about.
Also, yes, disbanding obsolete Warriors is sensible, especially if you now have the ability to build Swords. Upgrading at 60g per head is usually still too expensive at that stage, but building from scratch shouldn't take >6 turns per unit, even in your weaker towns. And since you get no military-police effect under Republic, there's not a lot of point leaving rWarriors garrisoned anywhere — but especially not in towns which aren't at any imminent risk of being attacked. Try and make sure those couple of disband-shields go into something useful though (like a Court or 'Duct!).
Your budget should then easily be able to cover any additional units needed for further expansion (peaceful or conquest, depending on circumstances).
I generally try and beeline towards Republic (I usually play All-Random starts, though, and don't always make the Philo + CoL slingshot at Emp — and have never yet made it at DG), then revolt.
Then I trade the Republic-prereqs around for as many Ancient techs as I can get, and aim for Currency (good trade-bait if you can beat the AI to it), or Construction for 'Ducts if I need them badly (those 2 are usually the last obligatory Ancient techs I acquire — though they probably shouldn't be), and Lit for Libraries, if I can't get it by trading (but I usually can).
Medieval research depends on whether I want to go scientific (beeline Education for Unis) or need to go military (beeline MilTrad for Cavs). Either way, I'll trade for techs on the other beeline as far as I can. I'll take Chiv in trade if I'm offered it, but I usually won't research it myself.
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WeirdoJoker
King
Same here. I'm generally careful about selling Alphabet or Writing too quickly, so as to avoid losing the Republic slingshot.
Indeed, I hadn't built it for a long time until my current game, because I wanted to catch up on tech - and was probably a mistake. I did get 2 or 3 free techs, but mistakenly put off researching Education to get maximum use out of the GL, which delayed Astronomy - I got Copernicus', but missed out on Newton's by a few turns, which would not have happened but for putting off Education. Didn't even get Leo's out of it.
Normally when playing for the Spaceship (as I'm doing now - Monarch/Ottomans/Small/Continents/70%), I go for Astronomy first to get Copernicus', then the bottom of the tree toward Newton's, even though the bottom is necessary for MT to get the Sipahi (which I'm building now so I can take Coal away from Egypt). I was trying something different, and I'm not sure it worked out (though I'll find out at the end either way).
Thank you all for that great advice. I generally have been doing what you all suggested but hoping for a better solution to growing pains. Generally my capital is at 3-5 pop and 4-6 1-3 pop towns when I am hitting republic. But there is no way around it I guess. Missing the republic slingshot is just too big a risk at this stage of my learning to play the game. I need to keep in mind to avoid trading writing until close to slingshot. I am glad to know that you guys bee-line for Cavs. I usually get chivalry --> start war (which building knights templar (for free crusaders (shields)) and then b-line to Cavs. Now I will just ignore, stop wasting research on 2 techs and go directly to Cavs.
I do build armies with MGL. I even built one with horseman (china game) since I do not lose units and can wreck AI. So that makes sense. I now understand of importance of FB early so I will make that a priority. I used to use my 2 or 3rd MGL to build FB than MGL to build Hero academy etc. and slowly build more armies.
Again your advice has put my mind at ease regarding Republic growing pains.
I do build armies with MGL. I even built one with horseman (china game) since I do not lose units and can wreck AI. So that makes sense. I now understand of importance of FB early so I will make that a priority. I used to use my 2 or 3rd MGL to build FB than MGL to build Hero academy etc. and slowly build more armies.
Again your advice has put my mind at ease regarding Republic growing pains.
I will also say this: The duration of your anarchy is (best I recall) related to the size of your empire. So you kind of have to choose between a short anarchy with growing pains afterwards (an early revolt), or a long anarchy with fewer growing pains (a later one when your empire/cities have grown).
Those need to be disbanded anyway, so best disband them where the 2 shields per disbanding are most useful(usualy towns expected to be low on production). This should happen when you enter republic. While still in anarchy they are of use as a deterrent, but they should move to their place of disbandment. Once a republic no further delay in disbandment should occur if that is possible without undue risk.
Delaying republic is not a good idea. Growing pains do occur, but often enough republic will yield an immediate advantage in net commerce over despotism. Net commerce may increase from say 44 before anarchy to 112 after anarchy. It is less if you are beyond unit support which tends to happen, but with proper management this can be mitigated. It does require some careful planning and possibly a lot of disciplin.
I'll add that if if you've saved some cash for cash-rushing items, disbanding an obsolete unit is a good way to start the process. Shields cost (IIRC) 8 gold per shield to cash rush if the production bin is totally empty. If there's at least 1 shield in it, the gold cost drops to 4 gold per shield. So it costs 320 shields to rush a 40 Shield Medieval Infantry, if the box is empty. If you disband a regular Warrior for 2 shields, that cost goes down to 152 gold. (Yes, I know you could upgrade the warrior.)
Upgrading the warrior to MI costs 90g... So I really don't know, why everyone is recommending to disband the MP-warriors. I don't. During Anarchy I move all my military police to a barracks town on the border, then upgrade to swords for 60g a piece and then roll over the next best neighbor, which will also take care of the unit upkeep problem... 
The necessary cash for that can often be obtained by selling Phil, CoL and Republic.
Also it does not matter that most of the warriors are regular. They got promoted to veteran pretty quickly. Usually I have a few veterans, which can be used for taking cities, and the regular ones just go promotion hunting by taking out the enemy archers & horsemen, or some barbarians.
The necessary cash for that can often be obtained by selling Phil, CoL and Republic.Also it does not matter that most of the warriors are regular. They got promoted to veteran pretty quickly. Usually I have a few veterans, which can be used for taking cities, and the regular ones just go promotion hunting by taking out the enemy archers & horsemen, or some barbarians.
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