News: BOTM 13 Pre-game Discussion

[Erkon]

...and I'm right jealous of you guys that I can't play this one - What? You didn't test play it? Getting sloppy, ehh?

Also, don't be reckless about your defences in the very early game. The last always-war GOTM we had saw a fair few people (including me) leaving their capital undefended while their warrior went exploring, and as a result suffering conquest defeats at the hands of the nearest AI inside the first 20 turns, almost before we'd even built a single unit!.

What me?

I've never won an AW game, either. The worst part is not the rain of units, but the ability of the AIs to tech-trade between them, while you can't...

Yes, and the AI will get very cosy from mutual war struggle and quickly get up to pleased/friendly.

 

[PieceOfMind]

What me?



Yes, and the AI will get very cosy from mutual war struggle and quickly get up to pleased/friendly.

On that note, will AIs actually attack each other if their relations drop, or will they be so used to war with the player that they will never start another war? If so it might be worth considering letting them get the religions to share! I never play AW (I'm pretty used to that being an abbreviation for Advance Wars but anyway) so I'm not entirely sure how these games play out.

I guess it will be necessary to start with at least one warrior. But I haven't decided where to move the settler, if at all. The start spot has the advantage of flat land on both sides, whereas on the hill 2W you have hills on both sides. If stacks are coming your way and you need to take them out at your city it's easier when they're on flat.

I think I'll try to use Monarchy for happiness rather than stress too much over a religion (in case I miss Hinduism), and that will lead to Feudalism too which will be needed as soon as humanly possible.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

On that note, will AIs actually attack each other if their relations drop, or will they be so used to war with the player that they will never start another war? If so it might be worth considering letting them get the religions to share! I never play AW (I'm pretty used to that being an abbreviation for Advance Wars but anyway) so I'm not entirely sure how these games play out.

I guess it will be necessary to start with at least one warrior. But I haven't decided where to move the settler, if at all. The start spot has the advantage of flat land on both sides, whereas on the hill 2W you have hills on both sides. If stacks are coming your way and you need to take them out at your city it's easier when they're on flat.

I think I'll try to use Monarchy for happiness rather than stress too much over a religion (in case I miss Hinduism), and that will lead to Feudalism too which will be needed as soon as humanly possible.

They have too much on their hands if they've met you, don't forget.

It's possible on continents before meeting you, or in strange cases like the AP with heathen hatred or something. Generally though, don't get your hopes up. Play as if they're attacking you and only you, because that's by far the most likely scenario.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I just played a couple of random games on continents with these conditions, all I can say is.... brutal...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I should run some test games myself, but I've long thought of some approaches to make such a game easier. Of course, if this is an xmas tree pangaea or something it's going to be very difficult even with garbage tricks. However, careful play dictates it being possible at least...

 

[Harok]

I haven't played many Always War games so my initial thoughts will probably not be what I end up doing and I haven't decided on a victory condition either but here they are:

I see a number of possible good starting spots. 2N, 2W, 4W or 2SW are my favorites. The safest play is 2W, riskiest is 2N, Settler going 2SW, warrior NW then SW gives the most information and still allows for settling on the 3rd turn at the 2W or 4W spots. If nothing else shows up I like 2W the best as it has tons of food and hills.

Maybe I'm thinking about being too careful but I see my warrior going to the hill N of the pig before settling and then right back to the capital. Building a worker first then a pair of warriors to explore with then a settler. With no goody huts, no chance of a worker steal, and no barb animals to get xp from I don't think wandering around with the initial warrior is going to gain you much unless you are trying some super early rush and need to find where the closest neighbor is which seems too risky.

Possible tech openings for me if I end up settling 2W are -
Ag > AH > BW
BW > Ag > AH
Hunting > Archery

Some riskier alternatives would be to explore the near by land with the initial warrior and build a worker first with BW and immediately chop a settler. Might be the best start if we have a protected side to send the settler.

A couple of little tricks to keep in mind with the fast worker and an AW game in general to help with enemies showing up unexpectedly or in bigger forces than you are ready for -

If you keep a prechopped tree within 1 tile of your fast worker you could always move onto it and finish the chop the same turn because of the additional movement (just don't have it be on a hill). Roads can accomplish the same effect to an even stronger effect later where you can move 5 tiles (I think this is right) if they are all roaded and still chop.

Keeping a defender mostly built in your build queue, especially in border cities, which you can switch to and quickly finish can save a city. Just watch for hammer rotting.

Lastly I am so happy to have a BotM without goody huts and random events which are a personal pet peeve of mine, thanks DS. Now about that Always War option...

 

[Htadus]

On that note, will AIs actually attack each other if their relations drop, or will they be so used to war with the player that they will never start another war?

On that last Roman AW game, One of the AI did DoW on another while they were at war with us in my game. So that can happen but that did not help since that was about the time they were pouring in to Rome.

I finally beat that game on my fifth try if I remember, that was after taking out english(?) and Aztecs very fast and immidiately hitting and killing Kahn to get his Pyramids. Once we had the production from captured english and aztec cities near the rear of the empire kicking in it was just no problem. In this game we will need to also watch the oceans too. This should be very interesting.

 

[Htadus]

I guess this is a good time for a culture game . So maybe do a run around for a couple of turns looking for gold might be in order.. Just kidding and hope I do not think of this when I start the game.

But seriously, it seem that DS gave us a narrow straight with two land masses in both sides. So if we take out one AI from each side in the begining, then we have our 3 legendary cities.

So the plan is to settle between 1st-7th turn. At the moment, on a plains hill may be a good idea, as for which, closer to food is prefered. (Wait a minute....I think I see a plains hill near by........) Then build 4 warriors (and toss a coin) and send them all out togather in the same direction. The AI is not going to be building defensive units untill we show up sinc they are not in a war. So there should be only one warrior in the city.

Just hope the coin toss send the units in the correct direction. Then build a worker and rush a settler....yes we want to learn BW soon as possible for pop and chop rushing. After that try to repeat the same with archers/axes to another civ. I think this should be do able......or am I dreaming? If nothing else a party of axe and archer can ruine the Prince AI day bad enough for them to quit.

OK I am going back to finish BOTM12 and submit, and then replay that game with instant DOW's......now that may be the way to go. And my warriors know exactly which way to go.

 

[JungleIII]

TEST GAME

Try the test game out to see how you do with the starting position... and most importantly with the A.I. at AW. I don't know what DS chose for the map, but I feel it may have been custom continents?? Anyway, even if he didn't choose that - he made it custom.

Tough game and yet a fun challenge... will keep me busy during any slack days off work for Christmas... and yes, I should be going to the beach since I am in Australia.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Custom continents would make this super lame/easy...at least give us a neighbor or three!

 

[kcd_swede]

I like sea access for my capitol, since I always end up building the great lighthouse or the colossus in it.

I seldom build those unless its islands. But I used to, back when I was playing Prince level games regularly, so maybe you have given me some ideas...

Furthermore, water (and mountains) have added value in always war games. You have to defend your cities from less sides, which can make a big difference.

Yes, city placement must consider defendability in this game. That's one way this is different from a normal game... usually the human player(s) is the only civ(s) on offense in the early game.

Therefore, I feel that the access to the sea in the screenshot, both east and west, is just too good to be true.

Things that look too good to be true probably aren't.

I think you can only mine pigs when they are on the hills. You can probably farm the pigs if they turn out to be next to fresh water (which I think they aren't).

Right you are... for some reason I thought that was a hill, but its not. My plan still needs a lot more thinking anyhow...

 

[kcd_swede]

I've never won an AW game, either. The worst part is not the rain of units, but the ability of the AIs to tech-trade between them, while you can't.

Ouch, yeah, I forgot about that....
I have won "Always War" games but never with as many as 6 AI.
Hit them fast and hit them hard, concentrate on one victim at a time and take them all the way out. Fewer opponents make it much easier.

And things people don't normally make a big deal about... Statue of Zeus, Chichen Itza.... they take on a whole new meaning. you'll be fighting inside your borders enough to make even the Great Wall worthwhile. But the hammers might be better invested in troops. Stay flexible... no plan survives contact with the enemy.

@DynamicSpirit: Thanks for the nice tips, I'll have to print that out and keep it with me when I play this game.
Oh, btw... you didn't happen to check the "Require Complete Kills" option did you?

 

[kcd_swede]

I just played a couple of random games on continents with these conditions, all I can say is.... brutal...

Having second thoughts about colonizing space?

 

[PaulisKhan]

Having second thoughts about colonizing space?

and third and fourth and fifth....

Almost to the point where I'm taking it as a personal challenge

 

[Lehm]

Does anyone else think about settling on the plains hill we see. Working plains forrest tile first brings 4 hammers and even a food. So while building 4 or 5 warriors in a row right from the beginning the city can grow even though slowly. Maybe there is another plains hill forrest to the north. That would be even better.

I too was thinking about the strategy Htadus already explained but have to play some test games to see what are the odds of having success with it.

 

[Skurn]

I thought Always War meant that it was free for all, everybody at war with everybody.
But it seems AIs have normal relations between each other..

I think I will move the warrior NW, then probably the settler where the warrior was to settle there on T2.
Build a couple warriors then a worker, research BW. Then either chop a settler or an army.
I guess you have to be careful with the initial exploration of the first warrior, not sending him too far..
BTW, would it be a good idea to limit exploration? If you have less contacts, the AIs are more likely to war each other, or will start churning out units later rather than sooner. On the other hand, you can park a warrior on a forested hill near closest AI capitals to cripple them a bit.

 

[srad]

....you can park a warrior on a forested hill near closest AI capitals to cripple them a bit.

From my experience with the Roman AW game it is critical to cripple the AI as soon and as hard as possible. If the AI isn't disturbed in their development they will become to powerful with the time (they can settle a lot of towns and they can exchange techs). And when the AI has more production power and maybe the more advanced military techs the situation will become uncomfortable.

So my plan is to find copper or horses asap and then send pillaging troops to the AI to slow down their development. If no copper or horses then archers must do the job

 

[Jbourne]

Does anyone else think about settling on the plains hill we see. Working plains forrest tile first brings 4 hammers and even a food. So while building 4 or 5 warriors in a row right from the beginning the city can grow even though slowly. Maybe there is another plains hill forrest to the north. That would be even better.

I too was thinking about the strategy Htadus already explained but have to play some test games to see what are the odds of having success with it.

Only thing that I see could hinder this idea is if you are on a small custom continent (alone) and that the proximity allow AI contacts to take place. So they may go on a unit building frenzy by the time your units are ready to land and take the main continant. Other than that.....?

 

[Niklas]

Bah, it's only Prince, how hard can it be?

 

[jesusin]

Bah, it's only Prince, how hard can it be?

The last one was only a level above this, Monarch. I felt that that game was more difficult than a normal Deity one.

I hope that DS has pity of us and the map shape is designed to help the player, so the difficulty should be aproximately that of a normal Immortal game.