News: COTM30 Pre-Game Discussion

[civ_steve]

COTM 30: Japan

[img=right]http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ3/leaders/TO_SHAP.jpg[/img]


Civilization: Japan
Rivals: 7 pre-selected.
Barbarians: Roaming
Difficulty: Emperor
Land Form: Continents, 70% ocean, standard map.
Geology:3 billion years old, Temperate, wet.
AI Aggression: Middle of the road.

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

1. Knowledge of Pottery
2. 2 Spears
3. 50 Gold

Predator-Class Equalisers:

1. Initial AI starting units set to DemiGod level
2. AI Unit support set to DemiGod level
3. AI to AI Trade and Anarchy turns set to DemiGod Level

 

[Chamnix]

Obviously, worker moves to the cow first, then it is a question of whether to move NE off the BG or not. With 3 other BGs immediately visible, I'm leaning toward settling on the spot and "wasting" a BG instead of wasting a move, but we'll see what the worker uncovers first. A six-turn settler + something factory is obviously possible - if there are no more BGs to the east and the "something" needs the extra BG, then I'll move.

 

[civ_steve]

Apparently the shield for the BG comes back once you turn size 7. Not too useful in the early game.

 

[Abegweit]

Not too useful in the early game.

No. But not worth moving for either. As Chamnix says, worker to the cow. However, I'm not sure what he could possibly find which would change my mind about settling in place.

 

[azzaman333]

No. But not worth moving for either. As Chamnix says, worker to the cow. However, I'm not sure what he could possibly find which would change my mind about settling in place.

Another food bonus?

 

[Abegweit]

OK. The worker might well turn up another food bonus. How could that change your mind? It would still be in your fat cross. The only justification I have been able to come up with for moving is two bonuses: one food and one hill, the latter just outside of the cross. Or perhaps east of the cow.

Unlikely, to say the least. I expect to settle in place.

 

[DBear]

AI aggression: middle of the road. Does that mean each is at their default aggression, or that ALL opponents' aggression is set to average? The latter will make for a strange game.

 

[F-86 Sabre]

Yeah, settle in place looks like the good option to me.

 

[civ_steve]

AI aggression: middle of the road. Does that mean each is at their default aggression, or that ALL opponents' aggression is set to average? The latter will make for a strange game.

There is an overall AI Aggression switch in the Editor - I believe it has 5 settings from Very Passive to Very Aggressive; I didn't change it and I believe the default was right in the middle. I assume this is modified by the individual aggression levels, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Chamnix]

However, I'm not sure what he could possibly find which would change my mind about settling in place.

It is what he doesn't find that might make me move. I think you need 4 BGs to make a settler + 30-shields in 6 turns. If the worker shows no more BGs in the fat cross to the east, then you could settle in place and hope there is another BG to the south or west, but it would be very frustrating if there aren't any.

 

[King Of America]

I'm not much of a fog gazer, but it looks to me like 2N is a mountain, which enters our city radius if we settle NE. Nonetheless, I;m reluctant to eat a BG by settling in place. Is 1 turn really that crucial? OK, I know--it depends if you're a good player or not-- and if you're really good, it determines who gets the award

 

[Abegweit]

It is what he doesn't find that might make me move. I think you need 4 BGs to make a settler + 30-shields in 6 turns. If the worker shows no more BGs in the fat cross to the east, then you could settle in place and hope there is another BG to the south or west, but it would be very frustrating if there aren't any.

(4*BG + centre) * 6 + 2 * forest = way more than 30.

In fact there is more than enough for a combo warrior/settler factory even with just three BGs.

2-turn warrior, then...
BG-BG-BG-cow + forest -> 9
BG-BG-BG-cow + tabacy -> 7
BG-BG-BG-cow + tabacy -> 7
BG-BG-BG-cow + tabacy + forest -> 9
32 shields for the settler.

4BGs is enough for a combo archer/settler factory, which may be what you are thinking of.

 

[Chamnix]

4 BGs is enough for a horseman/settler or swordsman/settler or archer/warrior/settler or 3-warrior/settler factory which is what is making me .

Starting at size 5 (or size 4 with growth due in 1), you can get 10 spt with the center + cow + 4 mined BGs. Spend 3 turns building military at 10 spt, then at size 6 spend 3 turns building a settler at 10 spt.

 

[Abegweit]

I wondered what you meant. It seemed so easy to get a settler out in six turns that I couldn't imagine the problem, and you're a good enough player to know that. You bring up a good point but I think I still settle in place anyway.

1. I don't like waiting to build the population of the city up to run combo factories. More settlers out early = more growth.
2. You might get the additional BG anyway.
3. When you get to Republic, this is no longer relevant. Either you switch to a 4-turner or you let the city grow. Warrior-settler factories are not my style.
4. You're moving away from the grass.

 

[PaperBeetle]

4BGs is enough for a combo archer/settler factory, which may be what you are thinking of.

I'm with Chamnix - the 6 turn 30/30 combo is a tasty piece of kit. The 6 turn archer/settler combo basically doesn't exist though...
If the settler can be built in the 'back' three turns, then the 'front' three can either do 30 shields too, or an archer would be so wasteful (27s presumably) that you would prefer to run the factory smaller and earlier, doing an axe/settler combo.
On the other hand, if the back three turns can't do 30 shields, then we need to use four turns, leaving only 2 turns to the archer; that's 10 shields per turn, which means the settler could be done in three turns. Reductio ad absurdam!

 

[klarius]

You don't need 4 BGs for a six-turn factory.
3 BGs and a forest are enough, because you can work the forest 2 turns at size 5 for 3 food surplus. Then swap forest for grass and the growth turn gets again 10 sh.

The additional benefit of 4 BGs is that you can share the cow one turn out of three and still get the 3 turns with 10sh each. But the set-up takes quite a bit longer (need to prepare all 4 BGs plus another 1-sh 2f tile).

 

[Redbad]

Sharing the cow makes most sense to me. If nothing exiting turns up I'll settle NE and found an early second city SSE.

 

[dbarandiaran]

what is that i see 1 SE of the tobacco? is it wheat?

 

[ignas]

do horses upgrade to samurais?probably be settlinging in place and going for fast domination (with samurais) or diplomatic victory

 

[PaperBeetle]

I suppose they do. But surely we won't have access to horses on our continent. Otherwise what is the point of the samurai? In the hands of the human player, it's really no better than the knight.