News: COTM43 Pre-Game Discussion

[civ_steve]

Yes, yes. Here is the pre-game discussion thread for COTM43 and it's more than 2 hours to game time! Here is some pre-discussion discussion.

I've wanted to do this civ for some time. Being a West coast guy I've taken a few trips to Hawaii, and have always been impressed with the Polynesians and their ability to travel over vast stretches of ocean. Well before 1000 BC (!) they started expanding from Papua New Guinea East to Fiji, Samoa and Tonga, and then continuing on around 300 BC, over thousands of miles of ocean, way North to Hawaii, East to Easter Island and South to New Zealand, and all areas in between. This is over 2 millenia before Columbus discovered America!

So, wanting to set up a Sid level game, pushes the game towards an Archipelago style game, so why not set up a Polynesia based civ?

COTM 43: Polynesia!

Here is the COTM43 game info: (more discussion below)

Civilization: Polynesia
Rivals: 15 pre-selected.
Barbarians: Raging
Difficulty: SID
Land Form: Archipelago, 80% ocean, HUGE map.
Geology:3 billion years old, Wet and Warm.
AI Aggression: Normal

(appearance of civ may change, but terrain is set)


Conquest-Class Bonuses:

1. 
   You get 1 Settler, 2 Spears and a Curragh
   Knowledge of Wheel
   100 bonus Gold
   An extra luxury resource on your starting land mass

Open-Class Bonuses
OK, 1 Setter and 2 Spears.

Predator-Class Obstacles:

1. 
   Are these really necessary?

Yes, Sid level, and Huge map with 80% ocean archipelago. (Extreme Archipelago map!) Lot's of specks of land with stretches of ocean between.

Polynesia will be Sea-faring (duh!) and Agricultural. This matches the Netherlands, so I'm using their civ as a surrogate, but I may change the appearance a bit so the image may change. I still want to stay 'out of the box' capable, so there is limited changes I can implement.

To simulate the ocean going abilities of the Polynesians, you will be able to build Polynesian versions of the early ships that do not sink in Sea or Ocean. These will be special Curraghs, Galleys and Caravels (probably with Outrigger in the name!). In addition to allowing you free rein to scout out the oceans (and found wherever there is space), this will also eliminate the randomness due to using suicide Curraghs/Galleys, so please explore this big world and make your decisions accordingly.

2nd, it would be nice to trade goods over these distances, so there will be an additional Ancient Age technology called Polynesian Trade that allows trade over Sea and Ocean spaces. The AI will be inclined not to learn it, giving the player another early advantage.

About half of the AI will be 'normal' Sid level AI's with all the bonuses and abilities they 'normally' have. The remaining AI's will be minor tribes with some limitations; some will have a 'polynesian' flair or relation, and will have a 'benefit' to provide to the player, which will be 'revealed' in time. There are some areas with intense barb activity to overcome (if you desire.) And a few open spaces for you to locate and use.

So you will get early ocean travel and trade to counteract the Sid level bonuses. Is it enough? I guess we'll find out!

Any questions?

 

[pol1]

hmmm...
i've never played SID before, i think i'll give it a shot, why not!

it looks like we start on grassland tile. there is some marsh N-W and river seems to flow from some lake to the sea. i will try open-class so spears will move to nearby hills, but i think i'll settle in place.
with this location there could be only problem with shields to get 4turner, we shall see what's around.
hills around give a chance for iron and horses - maybe not really that important on SID, but there might be some ******** AI not far away(?).

i _will_have_ to read some threads about SID games again to get tips.
it could be nice but tough game (even if short one)!

 

[Lanzelot]

Wow, this certainly looks like a fun game for the Christmas season!

This being the first time that I'll take on Sid and the first time I'll play Archipelago (up to now always preferred Continents, so no experience with this type of play yet), I might go for the Conquest-Class...

(Unless in an uncontrolled fit of bravery I download the Open save file...)

I hope we'll get an extra week for this one? My Christmas vacation extents up to Jan 6th, and I'd really like to make good use of that week...

Discussing the opening position: it looks like it leaves nothing to be desired!
No need to move the settler (I hope this time everybody aggrees...) and a 4-turner easily to be set up.

I guess, the first actions should be irrigating and roading the cow, then the wheat, afterwards roading and mining the BG and the gold. In order to quickly achieve all this, the first build should probably be a worker?! Or, if playing Open, a curagh to be able to quickly start trading?!

Judging from what can be seen of its shape, this landmass can at least hold 5 perhaps even 7 fully grown productive cities. I hope our rivals will start on smaller islands...

The swamp at 2NW looks a bit funny to me. Do you think it may hold another resource, like a fish or something? The Polynesians are quite good at fishing, so that would be the perfect bonus for us... (Ok, perhaps I am asking for too much now...)

Feels like being a child again: can't wait for Christmas!
Cheers, Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

it could be nice but tough game (even if short one)!

Hi pol1,
what makes you think it might be a short game? The map is huge, and Archipelago should slow down everything, too. And it is not to be expected that we loose early on, because it'll take the AI a while to get at us...!
I expect a long-drawn struggle (no matter whether it'll be a win or a loss).

Lanzelot

 

[pol1]

well this time it will be real archipelago (will it?)? not like COTM41?

@Lanzelot
You are right! - AIs won't get us until astronomy/navigation, and we will be able to sail around the world, get contacts without any risk of sinking.
tech trading will be crucial.
those weaker civs and benefits that they'll provide are interesting.
4 turner depends on unexplored tiles (maybe some BG?).

 

[Chamnix]

Predator histographic challenge anyone?

It's pretty clear that worker to the cow is first. Almost certainly settle in place - I'd give some brief consideration to settling on the gold hill for the extra early commerce (could be important to get to Philosophy first), but without knowing whether the water to the N-NE is salty, I don't think I'd take the chance of moving off the coast. We'll see what the spreadsheet says, but priority has to be given to an early curragh or three so we need a coastal site, and I'm unwilling to waste a worker move to taste that water.

Research will definitely be a minimum run at Writing.

 

[Niklas]

Wow, this looks like a really really fun game!

SID level in itself is enough to make it fun, the special Polynesian flavor sounds really cool, and the promises of extra treats of the map will make it even more fun. Gee, are we there yet??

I will definitely play Predator, there is no other way . But histographic on a huge map, hmm, I think I'll pass . Unless that's the only option available for a win in the end.

I agree with Chamnix' assessments: settling in place, worker to cow, min run on Writing and building at least two early curraghs.

EDIT: Hmm, though it's rather tempting to play Open class, what with the Setter bonus. Man's best friend, has to be a really cool unit that!

 

[I. Larkin]

Horrey!! Good settings that ship does not sink. It removes random factor.
But "early ocean trade" looks as very strong benefit. May be for predator this special function and extra settler may be omited? /But it does not mean, that I will play predator.../
Question: will this "minor AIs" described somehow or it will be "absolute surprise"?

 

[The Professor]

Oh, gosh, this looks like so much fun... I am currently playing my first game on Emperor, so I'm sure I'll get spanked, but I really want to try this. I doubt I'll have time to finish this, I have only ever finished one xOTM in time, and that was a small map, so I will probably compromise and do the QSC, just to give it a try, even if I don't have a chance to finish. Will definitely have to play Conquest class, though.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

wow. This looks like fun.

Will they still have the swiss mercs? I assume not and the polynesian version of the ships will replace them.

Even on predator, this is probably easier than a normal SID game - 80% arch will slow the tech pace considerably and unsinkable curraghs/galleys, plus sea/ocean trade early will give the polynesians a large advantage. I'm assuming that we will be alone on the island as well, and we start with a 4 turner and what looks like at least a 3 turn worker factory - depending on shields/freshwater, maybe a 2 turner or another settler factory.

Boy, that start looks great for a 20K city, doesn't it? Cow/wheat, 4 hills - lots and lots of shields once engineering comes in.

 

[Chamnix]

Boy, that start looks great for a 20K city, doesn't it?

I was thinking that too, but I think I'm too chicken to try it - if you go for a couple Ancient Ages wonders and miss, then I think it would be too tough to recover.

 

[denyd]

Anybody given any thoughts to victory condition. It would seem that Diplomatic might be the easiest and Domination/Conquest the hardest given the large numbers of free units each AI will have. Either of the Cultural will also be difficult with the production discounts available to the AI.

 

[civ_steve]

I see a few questions to clear up:

I hope we'll get an extra week for this one?

How about 2 extra weeks? Submissions due Jan 15th.

Almost certainly settle in place

I have configured the starting location to be coastal, on fresh water, with Despotism 4-turner Settler Factory easily obtainable. On SID you'd want nothing less.

But "early ocean trade" looks as very strong benefit. May be for predator this special function and extra settler may be omited?

Extra settler (and 2 spears) is not available for Predator. Special early ocean trade IS available for all classes once you've learned the new Tech 'Polynesian Trade'.

Question: will this "minor AIs" described somehow or it will be "absolute surprise"?

Some of these special minor tribes will be based on Polynesian folk lore, so they will be something of a surprise. I also plan to have some European civs as minor tribes, but imagine the impact they might have! I'm thinking about giving them a special ship class to allow them to move freely around the map at the beginning of the Middle Ages (not transport, just explore and bombard - perhaps an early version of privateer). And I'm thinking about including England and Spain, and have them in perpetual At War status. THAT would capture some of the flavor of the period when Europe was exploring the Pacific! I'm posting this later part here to see what your thoughts are, since these would be changes to the AI performance.

Will they still have the swiss mercs? I assume not and the polynesian version of the ships will replace them.

No swiss mercs for the Polynesians! I'm just using the Dutch as a placeholder, since they have the same Sea-Faring and Agricultural attributes. For a Polynesian UU I'm thinking about a modified AA or early MA unit with amphib capability; could be useful to gain a beach-head on an island swarming with AI units! This gives the player a lot of control on when to start a GA.

if you go for a couple Ancient Ages wonders and miss, then I think it would be too tough to recover.

The player is at a huge disadvantage to build AA wonders - the AI only needs half the shields to build them, and will likely research the Tech faster. The only exception will be The Great Lighthouse - an AI building that would overcome much of the early scouting advantage of the Polynesians, so I'll take it out of play. After all, I don't think you'll need it, and I don't want the AI to have it.

 

[Chamnix]

Anybody given any thoughts to victory condition. It would seem that Diplomatic might be the easiest and Domination/Conquest the hardest given the large numbers of free units each AI will have. Either of the Cultural will also be difficult with the production discounts available to the AI.

Diplomatic is almost certainly the least difficult (I refuse to call it "easiest" ). I would think 100K (IIRC actually 160K on huge) would be the most difficult since you pretty much have to take out all AI and still have enough time to culture on an 80% archipelago map (limited effect of Pyramids/Temple of Artemis, limited land in general).

20K is very difficult as well. As civ_steve mentioned:

The player is at a huge disadvantage to build AA wonders - the AI only needs half the shields to build them, and will likely research the Tech faster.

It certainly is possible (see HoF Gauntlet Sigma), but in the HoF, if you missed the Colossus, you could just go on to the next map and start again. With only 1 chance to play this, I think it's too risky.

Spaceship should be doable assuming you survive to the Modern Age and aren't woefully behind in tech. I typically find domination less difficult than conquest on harder levels because you can avoid an AI or two.

I think I'll be going into the game playing for domination, but I certainly will not hesitate to bail out into diplo or space.

 

[Elear]

Marsden, are you reading this? This is more like it.

I agree with Chamnix's assessment: 20k would be excellent, but also a huge unknown about wonders here. Some games just go unlucky, and with the additional variant rules, I really don't know.

Who is up for taking over the world on Predator?

 

[Niklas]

Predator domination sounds like a nice plan to me (with the obvious cop-outs if they appear ).

 

[Elear]

Predator domination sounds like a nice plan to me (with the obvious cop-outs if they appear ).

Exactly.

So, Chamnix, you in?

 

[Chamnix]

Sure - I'm already trying domination, and once you start playing Predator, you can never go back .

 

[Elear]

Good then.

As for the starting position, I believe that it looks like the start is on a thin landbridge connecting two halves of an island. I think the NE and SW are both salt water.

Like the others, I think worker -> cattle (irrigate) and settle in place is the obvious opening move, unless the worker reveals something radically different than what we expect.

The raging barbarians shouldn't be a problem once the colonization phase is over. Until then I would think simple caution will do the trick.

The starting traits are perfect, and getting the contacts of all the 'real' Sid AIs will be key. Being the broker will allow tech parity the whole game, something that is never so certain on regular maps (usually tech leaders know each other).

Probably easiest on Diplomacy victory, but going for Domination will hurt the chances of that. Conquest will definitely take longer than Domination: the unit amounts will be high, very high.

 

[Niklas]

Actually, mining the cow would make more sense to me since being Agricultural we'll have 5 fpt anyway from size 2 up, working the cow and the wheat. It will take 5 turns to grow to size 2 at any rate, and then 4 turn growth after that even without irrigations.