News: GOTM 10 Pre-game Discussion

[Jorunkun]

Alphabet is top priority to get the cheaper techs in trades (on this kind of maps meeting lots of AI is likely). (...) I am hoping to trade for most of other needed upper branch techs, but if it is necessary I'll research the cheaper and more essential ones like CoL, Construction, etc.

Agree on alphabet but would add that you can`t count on hogging it for too long on immortal. I`d happily trade it for something like iron working, which I wouldn`t do if this was emperor.

Big plus is archipelago slowing down trade between AIs and giving you and edge through workboat exploration. In a best world scenario, you get in contact with all the other AIs early, while they a restricted to one or two nieghbours each - perfect techtrader setup.

 

[jayeffaar]

Perhaps I miss something :
Why most people says we are in a small island? for what I know, Archip/Sneaky continents map means small continents with even 3 civs in one.

Is that when you expect small islands but they get replaced by continents when you have your back turned?

But it's true that snaky continents are usually long strings of land, not isolated islands. Your land is somewhat easier to protect than on large continents or pangea because you usually have your back to the sea, but you can still expect to have several neighbours.

 

[ingentingg]

I did some testruns with the same settings, and one time I ended up on the same island as everyone, but one AI. Though it's probably unlikely, it can happen.

 

[DaviddesJ]

My mistake. I just wanted to mention that Fishing is completed before the population expansion.

If it's just 1 turn sooner, then I consider that "essentially the same time". Building a workboat, you can wait 1 turn, then you get 3 hpt for 10 turns, so the time from start to build the first workboat is 10 (research) + 1 (growth) + 10 (production). This also means your 11 hammers in the warrior won't decay at all, because they don't start to decay for at least 10 turns (15 at Epic?).

 

[BLubmuz]

Is that when you expect small islands but they get replaced by continents when you have your back turned?

OK, a typo can occur, no ortographic check here (though the OC let this word as OK, it exists)

Anyway you get the point, and some maps with these settings gave me a sort of small continents, with a lot of small islands.
Don't forget the "low sea level", that probably enhances this chance.

 

[jayeffaar]

It's not like a spell-checker would have caught that one, since snaky and sneaky are both perfectly valid words.

A snaky continent is one that is roughly shaped like a snake, while a sneaky continent would be one that somehow tries to catch you by surprise. I just thought the typo was both funny and appropriate, since most posters seemed to be expecting small islands...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A snaky continent is one that is roughly shaped like a snake, while a sneaky continent would be one that somehow tries to catch you by surprise. I just thought the typo was both funny and appropriate, since most posters seemed to be expecting small islands...

I dunno. Most of my posters just seem to sit quietly on the walls where I hung them, without ever, as far as I can tell, expecting anything.

 

[Erkon]

If it's just 1 turn sooner, then I consider that "essentially the same time". Building a workboat, you can wait 1 turn, then you get 3 hpt for 10 turns, so the time from start to build the first workboat is 10 (research) + 1 (growth) + 10 (production). This also means your 11 hammers in the warrior won't decay at all, because they don't start to decay for at least 10 turns (15 at Epic?).

Apart from that a work boat is 45 hammers :-( ...
However, thanks for pointing out that the warrior should be produced for 11 turns, not 10.
And please note that this exercise is a way for me to learn the finer details of the game, not me trying to convince anyone how to best play the game.
And its 10 turns at Epic as well.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Apart from that a work boat is 45 hammers :-( ...

Good point. I tried it in the test game, and it confirms the analysis; basically, you can accumulate 11 hammers in the warrior, but then during 15 turns of workboat production you get 5 turns of decay.

My suspicion is that the warrior on the hill is going to reveal something interesting, so micro-optimizing the known start is probably going to be useless as soon as we get the save file.

 

[Shillen]

Well after my 6 month break from Civ I'm playing again. I'm extremely rusty and I'm sure everyone who's been playing all this time is lightyears better than me by now anyway. So I'm fully expecting to get slaughtered since it's immortal. I'm attempting to play more moderately than I was so I won't burn out as quickly this time around. I don't have as much free time to play a lot anyway. I look forward to posting in the spoiler threads...hopefully my game won't be over in the first thread.

 

[Gazaridis]

Whats a good idea for defence? Seeing as we start without hunting, I think I might ignore archery at the start and just go straight for axemen.

 

[volfan37132]

Whats a good idea for defence? Seeing as we start without hunting, I think I might ignore archery at the start and just go straight for axemen.

Axemen are better units than archers, but axemen are resource dependant
on copper or iron and archers have no resource dependency. If copper shows
up in the cultural borders or you can settle nearby and get a worker over all is
well. However, if it isn't you may end up defending against barb axemen with
warriors.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Any chance of someone adding a worker and a settler and maybe a couple research items to the test game to simulate Adventurer class?

 

[Airny]

From my experience with testgames, you won't have problems with barbs until you live on a snaky, larger island. You don't even need many fogbusters. The main problem is happiness, and we are for sure without religion, that's bad!

 

[RobertTheBruce]

From my experience with testgames, you won't have problems with barbs until you live on a snaky, larger island. You don't even need many fogbusters. The main problem is happiness, and we are for sure without religion, that's bad!

I tried the test game and didn't see many barbs. My neighbors took care of the barbs and me. Happiness and health were big issues. Settling in place and losing the fresh water health bonus didn't hurt that much because I couldn't get enough happiness to grow until monarchy. I was too late since I couldn't really research quickly with size 4/3 cities. At least I survived past 0AD. (that's better than my previous Immortal tries).

I guess its beeline to Alphabet and Monarchy to trade and expand. This could be a very hard start if there are no nearby happiness resources. I think I may head SE for the fresh water if the warrior reveals any happiness resources to the east. Two fish are overkill for whipping when you can't grow past size 4. Probably the capital and one production city and happiness resources are the only other priority. Fish and cows provide enough health until cities start getting past size 5.

 

[Thrallia]

I dunno. Most of my posters just seem to sit quietly on the walls where I hung them, without ever, as far as I can tell, expecting anything.

wow, your posters must be boring...mine talk all the time and even expect me to look at them.

 

[godotnut]

Can anyone who's familiar with immortal games offer a few pointers on what differences between emperor and immortal you tend to find, for the benefit of those of us (like me) who've never attempted immortal before?

Immortal is challenging but certainly doable. If you are familiar with Emporer, you will be fairly comfortable with the health and happiness bonuses (they are the same), but you will be in for a surprise when it comes to AI expansion. The AI on Immortal starts with two workers and three archers (it's one worker and two archers on Emporer). That extra worker makes more of a difference then you might think in terms of speeding up growth of their overall civilization.

In addition to their regular techs, the AI on Immortal starts with agriculture, hunting, and archery. On Emporer they don't receive agriculture, so again, this speeds up growth since they will have farms right away with those two workers.

Furthermore, the AI receives a 25% bonus to production in all cities (as opposed to a 17.6% bonus on Emporer) and you research 25% slower than they do (as opposed to 20% slower on Emporer).

Sounds intimidating, huh?

But really, both aggressive and builder-type strategies can win with careful planning. My cultural strategy is certainly viable. With this kind of start, the biggest obstacle to a cultural win loosely using my guide will be getting the religions. It's quite hard to found your own religions, and if water divides us from most of the other civs, getting them to spread will be a concern. Stone may not be necessary, as my guide is for Deity, and you have more time to win before the AI launches the ship at immortal.

Aggressive games may be slightly easier with those Chokonu. I love those guys. They are incredibly versitile. They slaughter all melee units, including macemen. Depending on the bonuses you give them, they make great attackers, defenders, or sacrificial collateral damage-doers. And loading up on all those extra first strikes is just plain fun.

A few tips:

1) if going for a builder/tech win, early cottages are absolutely crucial. Consider moving to the river with your settler. Hope for stone nearby, and go for the Pyramids (solving your happiness problem). Go for the Oracle, but not the civil service slingshot. Get metal casting instead for early access to those half-priced forges. This approach served me very well in the Monarch game with Frederick.

2) if going aggressive, plan on encountering larger and better developed empires with somewhat more archers. Plan accordingly with troop allocation. Consider sitting units in hill/forest squares in enemy territory, and let the AI sacrifice some of their army before going for a massive invasion.

3) Settle on fresh water with your early cities especially if at all possible. Health will be a concern. The three best solutions to the early happiness problems are: 1) Pyramids/representation, 2) gold/silver/gems plus forges, 3) a fairly early religion (judaism? Confuscism?) with a pop-rushed temple.

I will probably move my settler to the fresh water river for my first city. I will save the starting spot with the two fish for a great person farm, using early great people on the most expensive techs possible.

My initial build order will likely be: warrior until size two, then switch to worker. Finish warrior. Then either build a work boat while growing to size three or building a settler right away, depending on how close my neighbors are.

Since I had been playing a lot of culture games in the Gauntlets and HOF, I've used the GOTM to practice other victory conditions. This game, though, I'm going to make my first attempt at the medal for fastest cultural.

Good luck to all!

 

[AU_Armageddon]

This is the level I play most of my games at because I find once I can get a hold on Emporer it's just going through the motions for victory, but on Immortal even if you are rocking, the AI can actually still get away from you at any point in the game unless you really keep the pressure up and make every turn count.
I find map luck the biggest determinant as to a loss early on - as in a snakey continent with room for only couple decent cities, immediately heading polar for miles of tundra and ice leaves you little chance of victory. Fortunately, being set up I think we can assume the first Immortal game isn't going to be a map you'd normally have to restart due to inevitability.

For this scenario, I will go Fishing, Animal Husbandry, BW next only if there's no horse or wheel and pottery next if there is, then Writing and Alphabet. I have found that you can't usually delay Alphabet any longer than 1 or 2 divergent techs without risking it being redundant. Barring lucky huts, it has always proved the critical factor for me in keeping up through the classical age. I have also found that it allows you get the great library as you should be able to trade up to poly and then research literature immediately following alphabet. Not always worth it, but with an Industrial civ i think definately.

Hence, I will build a second work boat relatively early for trying to meet everyone in time for alphabet.

I find from here on I usually have to choose my techs based on what I can trade rather than what I want, if I am to keep up. Barring a military snowball now or the near future, the games usually all over when you research a tech and everyone already has it - on Immortal. This is just personal experience. It might be easier for others as I prefer playing by intuition. I never make excel charts, know the GPs in advance, or exploit slaving counting the hammer layout or any micro counting for an advantage where ALL the numbers are not displayed.

RE surviving. If you just want to stay alive, you often (depending) need to have a bigger standing army than normal on immortal to deter war i.e. if we have isabel and mansu nearby, they will typically both get religions and demand cancelling deals with the other then whether you do it or not, the annoyed party will declare war before you know it, even if you don't have any religion yet. The AI builds so many forces at this level that deterring an early surprise raping has repeatedly proven the 2nd most common game ender for me (after map luck).

Barbs are barbs, I never found them more trouble on Immortal. Especially on a map like this, it won't cost much at all to efficiently take care of all the fog anyway.

Just suggestions. I lose 50% of my (immortal) games. The unknowns are more important here than normal too. If there was stone on that river just out of sight for instance, going for masonry and pyramids would be a risky but very tempting investment, especially as religion is a out (well a crazy risk to me with this civ at this level anyway).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thanks Godotnut and AU_Armageddon, for taking the trouble to write those notes. They look like really good posts with lots of advice. I'll definitely give them some study before I start this game.

 

[godotnut]

I thought I would add that like AU_Armageddon, I too typically lose about half of my immortal attempts with GOTM-type settings. It ain't easy! I think even some of the best players could run into bad luck and lose early. It happens on Immortal. On the other hand, the score bonus and ultra-fast AI tech rate can lead to some spectacular early/high scoring victories if handled right. It's my favorite level for balance of difficulty versus payoff.