News: GOTM 10 Pre-game Discussion

[Erkon]

How long does it take to research Fishing? I think you will be size 2 by then, which means 3 hpt from two forests.

It takes 10 turns to research Fishing, and about 15 turns to reach size 2 if you work the cow. If you start with a warrior (starting with a worker is not recomended), it will not be finished when you discover Fishing.

In one of my test games, I switched to Work Boat as soon as Fishing was discovered, and when I reached size 2, I worked the two forests. When the work boat was completed, the ten hammers from the warrior had decayed to five, but the boat was completed four turns earlier. When I reached a predefined checkpoint, I had catched up the lost growth rate, and the lost production, and had gained 12 bulbs. After 100 turns, I had a one turn lead compared to completing the warrior before switching to the work boat.

With two fish, each food will translate into more than one hammer, so once BW is discovered, working the fish is even better than working the pastured cow (because of the three commerce).

Cheers,

/Erkon

 

[DaviddesJ]

It takes 10 turns to research Fishing, and about 15 turns to reach size 2 if you work the cow.

Huh? Why doesn't it take exactly 11 turns to reach size 2, working the cow? 33 food, divided by 3 food/turn, equals 11 turns.

You might consider building Barracks rather than Granary for the first 10 turns, because those hammers don't decay as fast. But the Barracks is probably not worth finishing any time soon, even if you have 10 hammers in it.

With two fish, each food will translate into more than one hammer, so once BW is discovered, working the fish is even better than working the pastured cow (because of the three commerce).

I don't think that 1 food is necessarily worth more than 1 hammer, until you have a Granary also. It doesn't really matter, because you're always going to want to work both fish and the cow, once they are improved.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hunting first makes AH cheaper

Interesting, how much and why is that?

I didn't do any calculations yet, but intuitively I feel that starting with a worker is more optimal then starting with a WB.

At this level do you think you'll be able to get away with not making military?

I'll be trying this game even though I've only been playing three weeks and haven't finished a game yet. Rather not go adventurer in case I do well...

 

[DaviddesJ]

Interesting, how much cheaper and why is that?

Each tech gets roughly 20% cheaper for each prerequisite you have. See here for exact figures:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146163

 

[pigwidgeon]

Practice game, think it is correct

 

[LowtherCastle]

Each tech gets roughly 20% cheaper for each prerequisite you have. See here for exact figures:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146163

Excellent. Thank you very much, DaviddesJ

 

[Gazaridis]

Hmm. Happiness is going to be a major problem here, its what limits me in games at higher difficulty levels. Anyone got any tips on what to do when you cant grow above 4 people?

 

[DaviddesJ]

Practice game, think it is correct

Very nice, thanks, but you have the river ending at the NE corner of the hill. In the original screenshot, I believe it turns north and continues, although it's not absolutely clear.

Also, your practice game doesn't put a blue circle on the river hill, but the original screenshot has one. Does that indicate an extra resource under the shroud?

 

[EEO]

I don't think one should gamble on copper to be able to defend against barbs.

I would agree with you if the map was as the map generator made it. But ainwood played a part in it and, for the first Immortal game, I'd bet he has done something ...

 

[Samson]

Hmm. Happiness is going to be a major problem here, its what limits me in games at higher difficulty levels. Anyone got any tips on what to do when you cant grow above 4 people?

The primary thing to do is grow above 4 people, then pop rush with the greatest number of people you can (with at least 1 turn of production into the project).
You can also used the citizens for non-food producing roles (specalists and plains hils) but with 3 food bonuses it is probably better to get the food and use the whip.

 

[Vynd]

I'm with Blubmuz, in that I think it is a mistake to assume that we will be alone on our landmass. Snaky continents with higher than usual land vs. water makes it entirely possible that we'll be on a good sized landmass with other civs. GOTM 8 was an archipelago map with low water, if I remember right, and we started on a decent sized continent with another civ.

Barbarians should be less of a problem on this sort of map than they would be on most other settings. If the island does turn out to be small you can probably monitor the entire thing with three units or less. If it's a larger island then that might not be possible, but the "snaky" nature of the land means that there are usually chokepoints that you can focus your efforts on defending. Just remember to be prepared for some barbarian galleys coming along eventually to try and pilage your fish!

I think archipelago is a map style that favors human players. The AI isn't particularly good at overseas expansion, be it aggressive or peaceful. So you're safer from attack than you might otherwise be, and there are often some reasonably good city sites available much later than they would be on other settings.

So if our situation is anything like what I'm expecting, based on the map settings, then I think we're in a favorable position for vertical development. Build a few good cities early and develop them fully. Since we're Industrious a few wonders might be in order. Then use these really nice cities to build more settlers, an army, or whatever else seems like the most useful thing for pursuing victory. Trying to expand rapidly really early on via warfare or peaceful settling will probably not pay off given the high maintenance costs.

Of course all of this assumes the map is like I think it will be. If Montezuma has his capital just around a bend in the landmass then all bets are off.

 

[Erkon]

Huh? Why doesn't it take exactly 11 turns to reach size 2, working the cow? 33 food, divided by 3 food/turn, equals 11 turns.

My mistake. I just wanted to mention that Fishing is completed before the population expansion.

 

[Softnum]

Also, your practice game doesn't put a blue circle on the river hill, but the original screenshot has one. Does that indicate an extra resource under the shroud?

I was under the impression that this 'bug' was patched. The Map Gen will favor starting positions with the locations of all strategic resources, but not blue circles. While genning several random maps at these settings, and taking a look, a couple of times my settler didn't start on a blue circle. This was generally because a stratigic resource was around.

I'd like to second whoever's above post it was about the lack of stratigic resources. I genned about 15 maps last night, and only 3 of them started with Copper within a reasonable distance. About 7 had Iron. Only 2 or 3 of these was the resource in my fat cross.

Also, it seemed 50/50 having an AI around that you would contact early.

Remember, too, at this difficulty, the AI starts out with bonus techs. They all had archers and archery to start. This (I think) will make the techs cheaper for us to research.

 

[Erkon]

I am going to beeline along the lower military tech branch to get Cho-ko-nu's, then knights, then grendiers...

Do you mean that you are going to skip Alphabet, Literature, Construction and Engineering? Or do you plan to trade for these techs?

I usually have problems to decide if a conquered city should be razed or not. Without the "civil" technologies, I guess most of the cities needs to be razed to keep up research.

 

[Obormot]

Alphabet is top priority to get the cheaper techs in trades (on this kind of maps meeting lots of AI is likely). Literature may also come soon if I decide that I want TGL and NE. I am hoping to trade for most of other needed upper branch techs, but if it is necessary I'll research the cheaper and more essential ones like CoL, Construction, etc. I will definitely not research expensive stuff like CS and Engineering though. I am going to keep most of the cities I capture. At this level they should come with lots of mature cottages, so they should be able to at least pay for themselves. I will also build the FP as soon as I can. Also note that fast expansion (peacefull or military) means more luxes, and that means I can grow my cities to work more cottages.

 

[Charge]

I've already submitted some previous GOTMs, but this is my first post here so hi everyone!

I've yet to win a game above Prince level, so this one will be hard for me, but I'll try anyway in the hope to learn something, like I've already done a lot by reading all the spoilers of the old games. Thank you for writing them and of course to the GOTM staff!

My idea for this game is to settle in place, unless the warrior discovers something useful climbing the hill SE. In GOTM9 I've been smashed by barbarians early so the fist goal will definitely be to just survive...
Fishing and BW will be the research path in order to use whip/chop to speed up production. I would like to build some sea related wonders like Colossus/Great Lighthouse, but I've no idea if at this level it's possible to beat the AI at them...

The ultimate goal could be a peaceful culture/diplomatic win, but I would be happy just to be alive when someone else will put his flag on Alpha Centauri. We'll see...

Cheers.
Charge

 

[Erkon]

O.K. Having got that off my chest, I´m going to need some help to survive this one. So I´m shamelessly going to ask for advice from everyone.

The first question might seem rather naive, but exactly how do you pop-rush to best effect? I haven´t really been able to get the hang of using the whip.

I either seem to be in a position where I can whip 1 pop to save myself 4 turns of building, or whip 2 or 3 pops to save 9 or 10. Intuitively, this doesn´t seem like a great deal to me.

So, what´s the key to effective pop-rushing?

Pop-rushing has the biggest impact on cities with lots of food resources and not much production. Each population in GOTM10 will generate 44 hammers (I think), so its not only how many turns you save on the current unit/building but how much is overflowed to the next unit/building (I read somewhere that overflow is capped to 100% of the unit/building you rush). If you settle in place in this game, and build two work boats, you can whip one population/15 turns and still grow. Just ensure you have built at least one hammer and that the unhappiness is fully gone (unless you have the Globe Theatre

Keep in mind that although you gain production, your commerce may drop.

 

[Markus5]

In my test maps, the low sea level and snakey continents seemed to mostly make oblong islands. I was almost always alone.

My general plan? Colonize the island. Explore early and trade often. Early tech research to get fishing, Animal Husbandry, archery and Bronze working. Chop and whip. Early builds to get fishing boats, worker and defense. A couple of the fishing boats will be exploring.

I'll play at the explorer level, I think. But, I tried the regular level last time and did OK. I fumbled the end game, but otherwise it was OK. Maybe I'll try it again.

I think we'll need to play against the AI's weaknesses. Early exploration by work boat, early galley colonization, and sea invading are all things the AI does poorly. So, I'll explore by work boat early and keep the coastline guarded. I'll also be ready to settle nearby islands if necessary, but I'm hoping that the island is mine.

 

[Dagnabit]

I have been trying a few test games without trying for an early religion and have found it very frustrating getting a new cities culture expanding fast enough to stave off aggressive AI settlers. I hate to settle in a sub optimum location just to insure a key resource (copper/iron) is within the 9-square and won't be engulfed by AI expansion. Having to make an obelisk and wait for the painfully slow culture to rise is excruciating! Should I be giving up optimum speed in aquiring these resources? Any other avenues for early culture without putting research at a further disadvantage to the AI

 

[Jorunkun]

Dagnabit, I really wouldn`t count on early religion on this level and without mysticism. Ran a few test games and Buddhism popped around the 3500s to 3300s, Hinduism 3100s to 2900s. I think there`s more to be gained from earlz fishing and bw.