News: GOTM 11 Pre-Game Discussion

[ainwood]

GOTM 11: Roosevelt

This game MUST be played in patch version 1.61. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in warlords!



Game settings:
Civilization: America (Leader: Roosevelt; Traits: Organised, Industrious)
Rivals: 6
Difficulty: Monarch
Map: Highlands
Mapsize: Standard
Climate: N/A
Water level: N/A
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: Normal
Options: Agressive AI, Raging Barbs.
Victory Conditions: all enabled

Roosevelt:
Roosevelt is Organised and Industrious; starting with agriculture and fishing. Organised allows double production speed of courthouses & lighthouses, as well as 50% less civic upkeep. Industrious allows +50% wonder production, as well as double production speed of forges.

Unique unit: Navy Seal:
The Navy Seal replaces the Marine. It has strength of 24 and costs 160 hammers. The main benefits of the Navy Seal are 1-2 first strikes (which the standard marine does not get). As with the marine, it gets +50% attack against machine guns and artillery, and starts with the amphibious promotion. Unlike the Marine, it also starts with the March promotion.

The starting screenshot is here (click for a bigger version!)


Adventurer Class bonuses:
To be confirmed.


Challenger Class Equalisers:
To be confirmed.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Oooh. Interesting. Moderately hard difficulty level, and potentially a very challenging map. On the down side, highlands tends to have loads of land but IMO is often short on good city locations, which gives an extra importance to scouting around. That of course could slow the AI as well. Research is likely to go generally slower than normal, but production cities will be more plentiful.

Because of the amount of land, barbs tend to come in insane numbers, even without the raging barbs option, so early defence is going to be crucial. The fact that we only have two sides to defend is I think going to be one of the most useful aspects of this starting location. Means we may have an easier time fending off barbs than some of the AI will.

Not a lot of help from the choice of leader/civ. On the one hand, starting with fishing will be nice to hook up those fish (or clam or whatever they are), so there's the potential for early poprushing. And getting a (temporary) early tech lead over AI's not all of whom will have access to water-based commerce. OTOH the unique unit doesn't become available until the late game, and the marine/navy seal is really at it's best on high water maps, which this isn't. Organized/Industrious doesn't look to me like it goes well together. Offhand I can't think of any strategy that'll be able to take much advantage of both traits (you can take advantage of either one of them easily).

Overall I'd say this is going to be a little harder than typical for a monarch game. But It'll definitely have a very different flavour from the last few GOTMs!

And as yet I have no idea how I'm going to play this one. I think I'll do some early scouting and decide based on what I find.

 

[Shillen]

This game looks really fun. I'll definitely need a practice game for this as I've never played on raging barbs (although I've read some SG's and it looks pretty insane). I wonder if ainwood would be cruel enough to not give us copper. I might just avoid bronzeworking early just to avoid having barb axemen show up. I can defend myself with archers or chariots.

Outresearching the AI's on this type of map is probably pretty easy. Conquering them will be kind of hard since all their cities will be on hills and their units promoted from fighting barbs. I don't think an axeman/swordsman war will be too effective - better to wait for catapults - besides we'll be dealing with barbs through most of the early game anyway.

I'll probably tech to cannons and then turn research off while I conquer/dominate the world. That worked well for me in a monarch game I played in warlords last week.

I'm not fond of starts requiring workboats, especially if I avoid early bronzeworking (which I'm still undecided on) since I won't be able to whip them.

This game will definitely be a challenge and I look forward to it.

 

[Airny]

This looks like a lot of fun.
Wonder if anyone can win a diplo victory with agressive AI (I mean anyone voting for you!).

 

[Vynd]

Settling in place looks like a winner to me. With raging barbarians I don't think wandering around for awhile looking for a better spot is a good idea. And the warrior is unlikely to reveal anything interesting on the first turn.

What exactly does the Aggressive AI setting do? I've never used it for any of my games. I have to assume that between that and the Raging Barbarians, having a strong army throughout the game will be essential. I would probably research AH first and hope to find horses nearby, and failing that go for BW.

 

[ShannonCT]

What exactly does the Aggressive AI setting do? I've never used it for any of my games. I have to assume that between that and the Raging Barbarians, having a strong army throughout the game will be essential. I would probably research AH first and hope to find horses nearby, and failing that go for BW.

These are the same settings as on the current SGOTM. The Aggressive AI setting seems to mean that it takes more positive relation points to get the AI Pleased or Friendly with you. The AI starts Annoyed with you instead of Cautious, even with +1 relations. I dont think it necessarily makes the AI more likely to attack you. It should really be called "Cranky AI".

With Normal speed and Raging Barbs, barbs appear after turn 30 (2760BC) and will attack your cities immediately. It would be easy to lose this game very quickly if you're thinking in terms of normal barbs.

 

[Shillen]

These are the same settings as on the current SGOTM. The Aggressive AI setting seems to mean that it takes more positive relation points to get the AI Pleased or Friendly with you. The AI starts Annoyed with you instead of Cautious, even with +1 relations. I dont think it necessarily makes the AI more likely to attack you. It should really be called "Cranky AI".

I'm pretty sure relations are taken into account when an AI decides to declare war or not. It's not the only factor (or even the biggest one) but I do believe it does have an impact.

 

[ShannonCT]

I'm pretty sure relations are taken into account when an AI decides to declare war or not. It's not the only factor (or even the biggest one) but I do believe it does have an impact.

All I can say with certainty is that the AI will not declare war on you if they are Friendly (except in the case of a Defensive Pact or Permanent Alliance with another country). Otherwise, an AI with +9 Pleased relations may declare and another with -12 Furious relations may leave you alone the entire game. The decision is mostly about power and opportunism: if the AI is much stronger than you and looks to gain by taking your territory and cities, it will declare, even if you have been good trading partners and brother of the faith.

I dont think people need to go into the game thinking that this GOTM has to be all about war. Diplomatic and Cultural victories are not much harder on these settings. The Raging Barbs should be a much bigger concern in the early game. The nice thing about the Highlands setting is its easy to find choke points and forested hills to set up an anti-barb perimeter - just do it fast!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

These are the same settings as on the current SGOTM. The Aggressive AI setting seems to mean that it takes more positive relation points to get the AI Pleased or Friendly with you. The AI starts Annoyed with you instead of Cautious, even with +1 relations. I dont think it necessarily makes the AI more likely to attack you. It should really be called "Cranky AI".

Does that mean the AI's start annoyed with each other too? (If that's the case then I could imagine aggressive AI making it easier to get a tech lead and manipulate diplomacy through trade, since the AIs won't be trading amongst themselves as much?

With Normal speed and Raging Barbs, barbs appear after turn 30 (2760BC) and will attack your cities immediately. It would be easy to lose this game very quickly if your thinking in terms of normal barbs.

Is that the only effect, or do barbs appear in greater numbers too?

btw if what you're saying is correct, that sounds very dangerous. At turn 30 your city will presumably be size 2 (unless you built a workboat first of all), you could have built maybe 2 warriors, of which at least one will presumably be exploring. Maybe you could just about get 3 warriors if you start building nothing but warriors, or 2 warriors and an archer if you beelined to archery and focussed on production?

ISTM that you'll be pushed to have more than one warrior defending your capital at turn 30 without making significant sacrifices in your civ growth, and one warrior vs an attacking archer = not good...

That almost makes me wonder whether purely on defence grounds, you should move the settler to a hill to settle?

 

[JerichoHill]

Allright so, let's examine our map.

1) It appears we can expect some resources to our NorthEast, as evidenced by the 2nd blue circle almost directly North of our starting location. Our warrior is practically useless for exploring the map on turn 1. I also think that our initial settler location is suboptimal. I'd like to get two cities in on that coast (lighthouse, GL, CoL) and possibly a third to our west. It would be nice to carve out a barbarian reserve and level up our units whilst also guaranteeing expansion room.

So with that said, I believe I will move 2E and settle on the coast there. This will keep the clams in my fat cross, but potentially gain another visible resource. It will also allow me to plop down another city on that shoreline.

2) Our Civ makes the Lighthouse, GL, COL strategy worthwhile. We start with fishing, and build the lighthouse at half speed. I think its pretty obvious we should exploit this. Plus, we should be able to nab a wonder or two.

4) Nice UU. I doubt I'll get a chance to use it.



3) I will tech towards GL and COL. I will likely bypass BW and go for Archery.

 

[Markus5]

Ha! I just started a Monarch game with Roosevelt. I think I'll can that game and start another matching the GOTM 11 attributes.

I think the starting position will make a great general purpose city.
I'll want to have a workboat, worker and some early warriors.
I'll target Cottaging, Mining, and Archery as early tech.
Beyond that... Who knows?

Great choice for this month's GOTM.

 

[ShannonCT]

Does that mean the AI's start annoyed with each other too? (If that's the case then I could imagine aggressive AI making it easier to get a tech lead and manipulate diplomacy through trade, since the AIs won't be trading amongst themselves as much?

I sought to answer your question in the Worldbuilder (gave everyone scouts next to everyone else's cities after the first turn). I dont think the AI is affected by the Aggressive AI setting. The AI generally started off Pleased with the peace lovers (Ghandi) and Annoyed with the war lovers (Napolean).

Is that the only effect, or do barbs appear in greater numbers too?

Seems like yes.

btw if what you're saying is correct, that sounds very dangerous. At turn 30 your city will presumably be size 2 (unless you built a workboat first of all), you could have built maybe 2 warriors, of which at least one will presumably be exploring. Maybe you could just about get 3 warriors if you start building nothing but warriors, or 2 warriors and an archer if you beelined to archery and focussed on production?

ISTM that you'll be pushed to have more than one warrior defending your capital at turn 30 without making significant sacrifices in your civ growth, and one warrior vs an attacking archer = not good...

That almost makes me wonder whether purely on defence grounds, you should move the settler to a hill to settle?

Well, it's not as bad as it sounds. I found that you could start with a workboat AND produce 3-4 warriors by turn 30. You can expect to have 4 warriors for a perimeter around Washington and 1 warrior defending. If a barb slips through the perimeter, you can always build another warrior in time to be safe. If you can find forest hills for your warriors, they should be heavily favored against archers. The real nuisance comes with barb axemen. Rapid settler expansion and border expansion seems like the best way to deal with the axeman threat. Settling in place with two clams in the fat cross would make settler production easy, and Stonehenge should be easy to get and useful for border expansion.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Highland map: no world-wrap. From the straight fog-line 2W from warrior I think we can assume we're next to the west border. If I am right, that makes 1 less direction from which barbs will appear, but OTOH, it leads to a suboptimal capital placement, as we won't be able to place a ring of secondary cities around it. Also if settling in place, the column 3W will be left unusable for the rest of the game. I would consider moving as eastbound as I could, so a 2nd city could be placed to the west, but leaving those nice clams(?) behind seems risky.

About raging barbs and aggressive AI, I'm glad I'm playing SGOTM2, it also has these settings, so I think I know what to expect, although I'm not sure if posting about my experience in that game would be regarded as an unwanted spoiler, so I'll keep my thoughts to myself on that matter.

So, no HoF-mod version this month?

 

[ShannonCT]

Allright so, let's examine our map.

1) It appears we can expect some resources to our NorthEast, as evidenced by the 2nd blue circle almost directly North of our starting location. Our warrior is practically useless for exploring the map on turn 1. I also think that our initial settler location is suboptimal. I'd like to get two cities in on that coast (lighthouse, GL, CoL) and possibly a third to our west. It would be nice to carve out a barbarian reserve and level up our units whilst also guaranteeing expansion room.

So with that said, I believe I will move 2E and settle on the coast there. This will keep the clams in my fat cross, but potentially gain another visible resource. It will also allow me to plop down another city on that shoreline.

The drawback of this is sacraficing early production. Moving 2E will probably mean no forests in the initial square, and maybe even the fat cross. It appears that there is coast to the east of that ENE hill, so you either have to work the hill and lose 1 food or work the unimproved clams and lose 1 hammer (compared to working a grass forest). Settling in place means getting your initial workboats and fogbusting warriors out faster.

 

[Vynd]

Allright so, let's examine our map.
2) Our Civ makes the Lighthouse, GL, COL strategy worthwhile. We start with fishing, and build the lighthouse at half speed. I think its pretty obvious we should exploit this. Plus, we should be able to nab a wonder or two.

On a Highlands map I have to wonder if there will be enough good coastal city spots to make this strategy pay off that well. There will probably be a fair number of small lakes scattered around so the Colossus may still be a worthwhile investment, but the Great Lighthouse may only end up affecting a handful of cities.

On the bright side, between our traits and the relatively small amount of water on Highland maps, anyone who does want to build the Great Library or Colossus can probably put it off for awhile without too much risk of the AI getting there first.

 

[JerichoHill]

There are forests to the north,2N, 1E of our settler. I see a plains there too.

Its gambit but designed to maximize long-term growth. Dunno if it will work but thats why we all have these differing strategies right?

 

[Nilson]

This coing to be mine first game on cIV. Its a nice way to learn the game.

The first city I'm going N and settle there to get a good defense bonus from the rivers and the forrest for the hamers. The crab is for another city.

 

[Jastrow]

I just had an evil/scary though... I note that the resource ballons are not on, so we cant tell if we are north or south of the equator. We will of course see that as soon as we get the save, and if we find out we are north, then....

Scary notion...

3E and 3E1N both look like water to me... What if that is another vertical coast, and we are on a small corner island, say 6 or 7 tiles accrose, and something similar from north to south. Anough room for only 3 cities, and needing sailing to get to other lands. How would that effect strategy, or am I worrying about a non issue?

 

[Alraun]

3E and 3E1N both look like water to me... What if that is another vertical coast, and we are on a small corner island, say 6 or 7 tiles accrose, and something similar from north to south. Anough room for only 3 cities, and needing sailing to get to other lands. How would that effect strategy, or am I worrying about a non issue?

Well, there's already a landmass visible to the south that can be gotten...

 

[chunkymonkey]

Freaky. I was driving home from work looking forward to a GOTM 11 announcement wondering who we would be this month, and Roosevelt popped into my head for some reason. Strange. Haven't played as him before, and haven't played with Raging barbs either I don't think, so will try a couple of test games up to 1AD ish. Maybe not worth trying for a religion if there are serious barbs to contend with, so will have to test.

Will probably settle on spot unless I have any more visions between now and Sunday.