News: GOTM 20 Pre-Game Discussion

[mrchadt]

Ok, I'll rephase the question. Would you rather settle in place and have horses or move N or NW and have gold in you capitals BFC in this game? Or similarly. Will you feel tricked by the gold if you move N or NW only to find that you have lost horses in your capitals BFC? (horses being 2 south). I ask because in the last GOTM I moved capital to lose copper and swore I wouldn't move capital again. I am hesitant about moving capital.

 

[culdeus]

As these maps are set-up by the GOTM staff is it more likely that settle in place city will have horses in BFC? (In the last GOTM settle in place had copper.) If this is the case, horses in BFC, does it affect your decision as to where to settle? as the gold is so good. eg. If you knew that horses were 1s1e would you settle in place?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there are horses within one of the visible tiles seen now.

Then again take it FWIW because I swore that there would be seafood on the coast in the last GOTM.

 

[culdeus]

BTW, it would be good if for the adventurer class you'd give us the CIV3 version of the Immortal.

Thanks,

culdeus

 

[Lexad]

Ok, I'll rephase the question. Would you rather settle in place and have horses or move N or NW and have gold in you capitals BFC in this game?

Due to fast border expansion I would move if horses were covered by my second expansions, but this speculation is useless unless you know where the horses are. So is your question, I'm afraid.

 

[mrchadt]

Saying my question is useless after answering it is a bit strange and offensive. I hope it is a a language/cultural thing rather then being unkind to someone asking advice off a skilled player. It isn't speculation it is hypothetical. But I don't want a flame war. So thanks for answering anyway.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Lexad is one of the top players that routinely offers suggestions and advice in the pre-game thread. I treasure it. (Thanks, Lexad! ) No reason to take anything he says personally. He is frank, though, which sometimes may sting.

I think he's actually already answered your question though, when he said that moving NW is more likely to put horses in your fat cross (or second cultural expansion) than staying put. Aside from that, I can say that having gold in your fat cross is usually one of the most advantageous tiles possible. It drastically increases your early research rate and quickly puts you on a better footing with the AIs at this level. Basically, I can't envision any scenario in this starting position where you wouldn't prioritize having gold in your fat cross.

 

[mrchadt]

Thanks for diplomacy. Yes I see he is very skilled and offers good advice. I was trying to find out how valuable having gold in capital BFC is. I did't think My question was useless. Thanks again for answering it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think useless here means the specualtion/hypothetical about where horses are. I agree with Lexad in that such speculation tends to lead one astray. There are two basic ways to play the start, as I see it: 1) settling in place, which means playing practice games can give you precise information about your research timeline, etc., and 2) not settling in place, which means all you can really do (at the higher levels of game play) is decide on a tentative strategy.

In either case, the only consideration about where horses might be are exactly what Lexad described: counting/fog-gazing the grass/plains tiles and knowing how fast your cultural borders will expand.

 

[Lexad]

I think useless here means the specualtion/hypothetical about where horses are

Exactly what I was intending to say. Sorry, didn't mean to insult anybody.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I have failed on the 2 Immortal games I've tried - GOTM10 (Qin) and WOTM7 (Cyrus). In the latter I wasn't doing that bad until I suicided 10+ cats/trebs without scratching a couple LB's which were defending Saladin's holy city - time to push the PC power button!

That been said, I think Cyrus is better suited for warmongering in warlords than in vanilla. And from reading other people's tales, warmongering is an absolute must in the higher levels. Also, normal speed isn't the warmongerer's favorite, is it? So it might make matters worse for the monarch level players like me.

About the map and initial moves, I noticed there is jungle all around in the fog: N, S, E, W! It might be hard to place a good 2nd city. And it is too early to tell, but I'm almost sure Astro will be required - high waters and the other persian game was a pangea, no point in replicating it here.

I am inclined to settle NW, but I'll move scout E-NE before. Who knows, might uncover something good and settle 2N instead. Still keeps all visible special resources, although it loses most chops.

Mining/BW or AH first? Worker or warrior first? I tend to go with the first choices but I'll have to playtest it.

 

[Lexad]

In the latter I wasn't doing that bad until I suicided 10+ cats/trebs without scratching a couple LB's which were defending Saladin's holy city

The advantage of first strike is yet to gain due appraisal because we defend so rarely from direct attacks of AI on our cities. Nice point of protective leaders, but the trait sucks otherwise.

 

[Harbourboy]

What would be some other good tactics for surviving in this game?

 

[Ramzes XIII]

To leave one good neighbour of the same religion to trade techs with, and the other rush out ASAP.

 

[Aborigen]

What would be some other good tactics for surviving in this game?

Fast chop stack of immortals, and get couple of nearby capitals. If the city is on plains, 2 immortal vs 1 archer should be enough (though need exact calculations). You should do it before AI'll connect copper

 

[LowtherCastle]

What would be some other good tactics for surviving in this game?

One possibility:

1. Settle on plains hill N.
2. Build wkr first. (Avoid stealing wkrs before immortals are in production. Be ingratiating to AIs till then.)
3. Research Mng>AH>Wheel or AH>Mng>Wheel but make sure mining is done before wkr so you can mine gold asap.
4. Wkr mines/roads gold, then farms corn, then mines plains hill S of capital (for production of immortals). Wkr connects horses asap.
5. Scout everywhere near capital so you know where the closest horses are. (This is immortal so almost surely we have horses nearby because ainwood wants everyone to have a chance, imo.) Then scout to find out where all AIs on our landmass are.
6. Grow capital to at least size 3 before making settler. Maybe grow to 4 first it you have horses within 2nd cultural expansion.
7. Connect horses (build settler if necessary) and build enough immortals to pillage and steal wkrs from all AIs on our landmass. (1 immortal/AI)
8. Build your glorious empire as you mercilessly impede AI growth with your plundering immortals.
9. Wonder to yourself, is this really Immortal or is this Settler level?

 

[Harbourboy]

I just played a test game and got slaughtered by Mansa Musa who had copper on the other side of his capital that I could never get to before being killed by hordes of spearmen. Even his Chariots seemed to always beat my Immortals.

 

[Harbourboy]

I just played my test game again, and even with the foreknowledge of Mansa's geography, I could not find a way to build more than four Immortals before he had hooked up TWO sources of copper. Maybe my test game was too hard.

 

[Balbes]

One possibility:
Connect horses (build settler if necessary) and build enough immortals to pillage and steal wkrs from all AIs on our landmass. (1 immortal/AI)

I was using at least 2 immortals per AI, all promoted to Medic after Combat I. They work perfectly in pairs, and make for a valuable addition to your big stacks in the endgame. You may want to increase this to 3 immortals/AI for much better reliability when picking apart settler convoys. They're typically escorted by 2 archers, and archers occasionally defeat immortals even in open terrain; your attack odds are in the low 90s.

 

[MarkM]

Cool I probably play this one (after not even bothering to start GOTM19), kudos to ainwood for the small/normal settings. I like the "intimacy"/lowered time commitment of WOTM10, especially during summer, & this looks of the same ilk. Also if you're gonna get slaughtered by the AIs on immortal, best to get it dished out to you right away instead of being teased a while

Agreed, 1N is better short term. But if you carry on your calculations not till turn 10 but till turn 300, you will find that 1NW gives more food, more hammers and more commerce.

Is there any difference in being able to build a lighthouse? I'm guessing no either way, even the big lake is too small right?

I like 1N. Worrying about turns > 300, or saving the rice for potential second city, seems WAY too finicky, at least to a player of my limited ability. I have to maximize my start -- especially with immortals + such an early UU. For me it'd be putting the cart before the horse, worrying about my second city on turn 0 ...

Only thing I could think of to do on first turn to change the decision to move 1N is to go SW-SW with the scout. Maybe there's a better site over by the river floodplains. Couldn't hurt to move scout that way first.

 

[LowtherCastle]

the only thing I could think of to do not first turn to change the decision to move 1N is to go SW-SW with the scout. Mayber there's a better site over by the river floodplains. Couldn't hurt to move scout that way first.

I'm interested to know if there's a second gold hill to the W. Guess you gotta pick your poison.