News: GOTM 33 Pre-Game Discussions

[DwarfSleepy]

I Esp after building Great Wall... all those raging barbs will find someone elses units to promote.

IIRC there is no great wall in vanilla

But you do have a point. I think the AI might also get an advantage from raging barbs in having some nice promotions. I'm really curious how that would influence Gnejs' challenge

 

[dalamb]

Finally, a GOTM my wimp skills have some chance with! Sorry to all those bored Deity players out there. I think I really, really have to push to make sure I finish this one.

Nothing fancy for me. Adventurer start, settle in place, tech AH, build roads until AH kicks in, hope for nearby horses. If barbs don't appear until around 1880, like in Erkon's test game, maybe there's time for mining, bw, archery, and hbr before then? I imagine ag would come before archery, though.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I also see this as an opportunity to get a decent result for once, so like you I will most likely not even try for some of the wonders. Since I don't play a lot of Vanilla, pardon me if this is a stupid question, but can you build religious shrines in Vanilla? If so, do they count as world wonders? As for national wonders, yeah they should get some points in the Dirty sock challenge, and your proposal that they are half worth a WW is a good one. In this kind of game it will be interesting to see if I can even qualify to build Heroic Epic, let alone West Point. Esp after building Great Wall... all those raging barbs will find someone elses units to promote.

Yes, vanilla has religious shrines, but it doesn't have the great wall (you're right, you haven't played a lot of vanilla, have you )

 

[nokem]

You need CoL to switch to caste system. Pyramids can get you Representation for extra beakers from your specialists, though.

Ahem. Yes. Time to re-read those SE walkthroughs.

 

[Gnejs]

I have played a test game for the barb conquest challenge, up to about 500 BC. The good news:

All civs have two cities but no improvements left. I am able to kill all settlers that they try to send out using my Keshiks. Naturally, their research rate is now disastrous.
I have gifted Iron Working to all of them, so the barbs should soon be able to spawn swords. Meanwhile I am beelining Construction for some cats for culture defense removal.

And the bad news:
I have yet to see a barb axe spawn, and only very few archers have spawned so far.
The only city the barbs have managed to capture is one of mine that I deserted for them. But even if it contained the Stonehenge they have still not gained a culture expansion despite sitting on the city for 15 turns. Bug? Or can barb cities not gain culture?

This is going to be a tricky one.

 

[Erkon]

... I do still though hold to thinking that for me (aiming for spacerace), an extra hammer per turn every turn is worth more than a one-off 20 or 30 hammer bonus from chopping the forest (esp when you factor in that forest chopping uses worker turns and the worker could no doubt have been doing something else useful with them).

Hmm, I just realised that settling 1N will loose me a hill (1SE of scout). So if I settle 1N and work the mined PH I get 5 hammers (1 from city + 4 from mine), but if I settle 1E and work the mined GH I get 5 hammers, 1 food and 1 coin. You are right, 1E is better

Unless the settler reveals something nice up north (first move will be 1N, then 1SE)...

 

[Erkon]

I have played a test game for the barb conquest challenge, up to about 500 BC. The good news:

All civs have two cities but no improvements left. I am able to kill all settlers that they try to send out using my Keshiks. Naturally, their research rate is now disastrous.
I have gifted Iron Working to all of them, so the barbs should soon be able to spawn swords. Meanwhile I am beelining Construction for some cats for culture defense removal.

And the bad news:
I have yet to see a barb axe spawn, and only very few archers have spawned so far.
The only city the barbs have managed to capture is one of mine that I deserted for them. But even if it contained the Stonehenge they have still not gained a culture expansion despite sitting on the city for 15 turns. Bug? Or can barb cities not gain culture?

This is going to be a tricky one.

Would it not be better to beeline CS for barb-maces?

The barbs need mysticism for the stonehenge to work . Barb cities can gain culture for sure.

 

[LowtherCastle]

This is going to be a tricky one.

BUt have you calculated how many barbs will spawn after the barbs have X cities? Will the barbs have to build their own attackers? Will they do it? Won't they just send those attackers 1 at a time to foolishly suicide?

And for that matter, is it to your beneift to have the barbs cities expanding their cultural boundaries or does that affect the number of barbs spawned?

 

[Erkon]

BUt have you calculated how many barbs will spawn after the barbs have X cities? Will the barbs have to build their own attackers? Will they do it? Won't they just send those attackers 1 at a time to foolishly suicide?

And for that matter, is it to your beneift to have the barbs cities expanding their cultural boundaries or does that affect the number of barbs spawned?

Hmm, good points. I would guess that most useful barb units will be built, not spawned. That's why I want to get to CS and machinery asap, not construction.

Once I have enough Keshiks to choke the AI it may be suitable to settle as many cities as possible for the barbs then? Pack them as tight as possible, but still leave a path for roads in between

EDIT: The barb city & unit spawning can be found in Murky Waters SGOTM5 thread. Note that the speed and difficulty settings may result in other figures. The barb research can be found here.

 

[Gnejs]

BUt have you calculated how many barbs will spawn after the barbs have X cities? Will the barbs have to build their own attackers? Will they do it? Won't they just send those attackers 1 at a time to foolishly suicide?

And for that matter, is it to your beneift to have the barbs cities expanding their cultural boundaries or does that affect the number of barbs spawned?

I don't have too high hopes that spawned units will be able to capture hill cities. But there is room to settle 15-20 cities, and I could let the barbs capture most of them. This combined with the CS beeline might make them produce enough maces to make some progress.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Hmm, I just realised that settling 1N will loose me a hill (1SE of scout). So if I settle 1N and work the mined PH I get 5 hammers (1 from city + 4 from mine), but if I settle 1E and work the mined GH I get 5 hammers, 1 food and 1 coin. You are right, 1E is better
[/COLOR]

Damn! There goes my chance to get off to a better start than Erkon!

 

[da_Vinci]

I don't have too high hopes that spawned units will be able to capture hill cities. But there is room to settle 15-20 cities, and I could let the barbs capture most of them. This combined with the CS beeline might make them produce enough maces to make some progress.

You mean 15 to 20 cities PER CIV? Or 15-20 cities on the whole map?

In either case, you might want to found and develop cities expressly for the purpose of "gifting" them to the barbs ... or is that what you meant by "let the barbs capture most of them"?

Are we inadvertantly designing the next SGOTM?

dV

 

[LowtherCastle]

Once I have enough Keshiks to choke the AI it may be suitable to settle as many cities as possible for the barbs then? Pack them as tight as possible, but still leave a path for roads in between

Okay, I can see this as a potential solution. Build, develop and grow production cities to gift to the barbs tight up against their future targets. An ideal production city would have enough food in the inner cross to prevent the population from starving after the barb captures it and lots of productive hills in the FC. Combine that with Stonehenge gifted to the barbs and they can expand their borders. Maybe get some religion in there for faster border expansion.

A supplementary strategy might be to found religions in cities that you're going to gift to the barbs and let the barbs capture cities by culture creep.

 

[dalamb]

Build, develop and grow production cities to gift to the barbs tight up against their future targets.

How do you gift things to the barbarians? They don't appear on the diplomacy screen like the other civs in any game I've played.

 

[reuster]

I think in this sense "gifting" means leaving your city undefended so that passing barbs can take it unopposed...

 

[Gnejs]

Okay, I can see this as a potential solution. Build, develop and grow production cities to gift to the barbs tight up against their future targets. An ideal production city would have enough food in the inner cross to prevent the population from starving after the barb captures it and lots of productive hills in the FC. Combine that with Stonehenge gifted to the barbs and they can expand their borders. Maybe get some religion in there for faster border expansion.

A supplementary strategy might be to found religions in cities that you're going to gift to the barbs and let the barbs capture cities by culture creep.

LC, are you playing this challenge with us? I won't hold it against you if you manage to accomplish it.

I finally threw in the towel in my test game after Alex managed to sneak a settler past me and found his third city. For sure this is going to be a very difficult game. So in case we all fail, lets use biggest barb population as the tie breaker.

 

[da_Vinci]

LC, are you playing this challenge with us? I won't hold it against you if you manage to accomplish it.

I finally threw in the towel in my test game after Alex managed to sneak a settler past me and found his third city. For sure this is going to be a very difficult game. So in case we all fail, lets use biggest barb population as the tie breaker.

Well, now you have to define fail ...

I assume by fail you mean that you win by some other route (good thing barbs don't have a score ) after trying to get that barb only conquest ...

Let's see ... a time victory does not have any points for the speed rankings ... or does it? Hard to see how it could, as all have the same time .

So work toward the barb conquest, then get the ship up for a 2049 win if it can't be done?

Maybe the tiebreaker should be getting a barb cultural win!

dV

 

[LowtherCastle]

How do you gift things to the barbarians? They don't appear on the diplomacy screen like the other civs in any game I've played.

What reuster said.

LC, are you playing this challenge with us? I won't hold it against you if you manage to accomplish it.

No, thanks. It's futile to me. You don't even know if the map is one of those 'pangaeas' with a small landmass nearby with an AI on it.

Well, now you have to define fail ...

The goal is barbs win by conquest, right. So barbs have to win. A back-up plan in my book would be a barb win by domination. That seems possible.

 

[da_Vinci]

The goal is barbs win by conquest, right. So barbs have to win.

I hope not!

The goal is WE win a conquest, by letting the barbs do all the city capturing, right? Doesn't barbs win by conquest imply they conquered us as well?

A back-up plan in my book would be a barb win by domination. That seems possible.

Can the barbs actually win? Does the program allow that? If so, then a barb domination might come well before the barb extermination of our enemies ... unless we get to 40% of land ourselves which could be tough if we can't capture or raze any cities ...

dV

 

[LowtherCastle]

I hope not!

The goal is WE win a conquest, by letting the barbs do all the city capturing, right? Doesn't barbs win by conquest imply they conquered us as well?



Can the barbs actually win? Does the program allow that? If so, then a barb domination might come well before the barb extermination of our enemies ... unless we get to 40% of land ourselves which could be tough if we can't capture or raze any cities ...

dV

You're right. I had a brain fart there for a moment.

Never mind.