Next Beta Preview Changelog

[ElliotS]

Good point, but isn't even more effective to just gift them the cities back after vassalization instead of razing?

Razing gives way more warscore, so you could end the war even quicker.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

P.S.: The limit of puppets could be increased with eras, policies,... And it would incentivize eventual annexation of older puppets to create space for new puppets.

 

[tu_79]

Razing gives way more warscore, so you could end the war even quicker.

The point here is that very little is stopping warmonger expansion now, as some of us feared. The prove is that AI is able to win domination so fast. I'm sure a human player could do even faster. This is not balanced in any way.

If razing and vassalizing is so strong too, then we should look at it too, but AI seems to be more straightforward.

Winning a war is going to be benefitting, but a period of consolidation should be mandatory or domination will happen too soon.

 

[Gazebo]

I don't think anything drastic or dramatic needs to happen. Just need some gentle touches. For now, I'm going the simple route of giving puppets a flat 1 unhappiness for every 5 citizens in the city. It goes away when annexed. So puppets will become more problematic the larger they get.

G

 

[saamohod]

>Espionage:

• Decreased value of early game spy power by 100 (50% weaker) - this value scales downward with Era, so spies naturally get better as the game progresse
  

HAHA, GET REKT ENGLAND !!!111

 

[pineappledan]

I want to echo @tu_79's sentiment, and look at his proposal. I think that combining this with Elliot's suggestion would be really close to a best solution

1. Puppets: 100% food/production. 20% other yields. 80% needs happiness reduction. No added supply.
2. Increase city HP on population. (Maybe not needed after fixing puppets)

Puppets may become very unhappy with war weariness, as that part of happiness is not affected by needs, so it shall force players with puppets to become happy again before new wars.

Why even bother with needs at all if they are 80% reduced? Just make Puppets contribute to war weariness normally. They are part of an empire that doesn't recognize them as full citizens, getting dragged into other people's wars and non-integration with the larger empire should be the major causes of unhappiness. @ElliotS' suggestion to emphasize the drain on supply cap with garrisons is also great. So what about this?

• Puppets:
• 100% /.
• 20% ////.
• No military Supply.
• No Unhappiness from needs or specialists.
• 2x Unhappiness from war weariness. Garrisons in puppets reduce war weariness by down to 1x (back down to normal amount)

Optional additional unhappiness source, based on @ElliotS' suggestion:

• 1 in Puppet, Increases by 1 for every Era that the Puppet has been on Empire. Like a landmark improvement, except sucky. Show growing resentment towards an empire that won't acknowledge them as citizens, but won't let them go their own way either.

- People get their area-denial, autopilot cities that don't generate significant unhappiness. When. At. Peace.
- Without a garrison in your city, draining your war effort, puppets on empire sink unhappiness very quickly, or sink your military supply very quickly. You either annex, cease warring and consolidate, or your pick between happiness and military power.

For now, I'm going the simple route of giving puppets a flat 1 unhappiness for every 5 citizens in the city. It goes away when annexed. So puppets will become more problematic the larger they get.

@Gazebo I want to try to dissuade you from going through with that idea. I think it is better to find a solution within the many existing mechanics you have already created, rather than tack on a new mechanic. This seems like an elegant fix, but it's arbitrary, and makes the systems in the mod even more disjointed and byzantine.

 

[Gazebo]

I want to echo @tu_79's sentiment, and look at his proposal. I think that combining this with Elliot's suggestion would be really close to a best solution

Why even bother with needs at all if they are 80% reduced? Just make Puppets contribute to war weariness normally. They are part of an empire that doesn't recognize them as full citizens, getting dragged into other people's wars and non-integration with the larger empire should be the major causes of unhappiness. @ElliotS' suggestion to emphasize the drain on supply cap with garrisons is also great. So what about this?

• Puppets:
• 100% /.
• 20% ////.
• No military Supply.
• No Unhappiness from needs or specialists.
• 2x Unhappiness from war weariness. Garrisons in puppets reduce war weariness by down to 1x (back down to normal amount)

Optional additional unhappiness source, based on @ElliotS' suggestion:

• 1 in Puppet, Increases by 1 for every Era that the Puppet has been on Empire. Like a landmark improvement, except sucky. Show growing resentment towards an empire that won't acknowledge them as citizens, but won't let them go their own way either.

- People get their area-denial, autopilot cities that don't generate significant unhappiness. When. At. Peace.
- Without a garrison in your city, draining your war effort, puppets on empire sink unhappiness very quickly, or sink your military supply very quickly. You either annex, cease warring and consolidate, or your pick between happiness and military power.


@Gazebo I want to try to dissuade you from going through with that idea. I think it is better to find a solution within the many existing mechanics you have already created, rather than tack on a new mechanic. This seems like an elegant fix, but it's arbitrary, and makes the systems in the mod even more disjointed and byzantine.

War weariness is calculated at the player level, not the city level, so there's no way to distinguish between puppet/non-puppet populations for that. Garrison stuff is un-fun and does not play well for the AI (as the AI can get distracted with garrisons easily).

Needs-based mods for puppets are a problem because the modifiers for the puppet affect the puppet's baseline. So the worse a puppet is at something, the harder hit it will be with needs-based development. I removed needs-based happiness primarily because this balance was profoundly hard to hit. Plus, since the player has no control over puppet needs, they have to just watch with peril as it avoids fixing its own happiness issues.

Having a flat .2 per-citizen unhappiness is easy to understand, helps it fall into line with cities in states other than 'normal city' (occupied, razing, resistance, etc.), and gives you an incentive to puppet temporarily and then annex when it is becoming a happiness drain. As such, I'd argue that any system that didn't adhered to either the needs model or the flat-per-citizen model was the arbitrary system.

G

 

[tu_79]

War weariness is calculated at the player level, not the city level, so there's no way to distinguish between puppet/non-puppet populations for that. Garrison stuff is un-fun and does not play well for the AI (as the AI can get distracted with garrisons easily).

Needs-based mods for puppets are a problem because the modifiers for the puppet affect the puppet's baseline. So the worse a puppet is at something, the harder hit it will be with needs-based development. I removed needs-based happiness primarily because this balance was profoundly hard to hit. Plus, since the player has no control over puppet needs, they have to just watch with peril as it avoids fixing its own happiness issues.

Having a flat .2 per-citizen unhappiness is easy to understand, helps it fall into line with cities in states other than 'normal city' (occupied, razing, resistance, etc.), and gives you an incentive to puppet temporarily and then annex when it is becoming a happiness drain. As such, I'd argue that any system that didn't adhered to either the needs model or the flat-per-citizen model was the arbitrary system.

G

Ok, I understand why you reject needs based happiness now.

Flat per citizen unhappiness could work. Is it possible to let puppets work specialists for a slightly higher unhappiness (for example, 0.3 unhappiness per specialist)? Just for flavour.

 

[Gazebo]

Ok, I understand why you reject needs based happiness now.

Flat per citizen unhappiness could work. Is it possible to let puppets work specialists for a slightly higher unhappiness (for example, 0.3 unhappiness per specialist)? Just for flavour.

Specialists are also calculated at the player level, not the city level. I know it sounds strange, but that's why specialist info is shown in the top bar, not in the city view.

G

 

[pineappledan]

So what you are saying is that puppets are already generating unhappiness from war weariness and specialists in the existing paradigm. Am I understanding this correctly?

Even with War Weariness being calculated on a player basis, it would still be possible to have puppets give a multiplier to weariness on empire.

Perhaps each puppet on Empire could increase War Weariness on empire by 5%. That way, if Tantro comes across another Mongolia with 9 puppets, at least he knows he's getting hit with +45% War Weariness

 

[tu_79]

I know it sounds strange

It really does, dude.

So, how do you manage to completely remove unhappiness from specialists in puppets? Because that's what you did, didn't you?

I'm looking for a way to let puppets work specialists without messing the happiness too much.

 

[ElliotS]

War weariness is calculated at the player level, not the city level, so there's no way to distinguish between puppet/non-puppet populations for that. Garrison stuff is un-fun and does not play well for the AI (as the AI can get distracted with garrisons easily).

Needs-based mods for puppets are a problem because the modifiers for the puppet affect the puppet's baseline. So the worse a puppet is at something, the harder hit it will be with needs-based development. I removed needs-based happiness primarily because this balance was profoundly hard to hit. Plus, since the player has no control over puppet needs, they have to just watch with peril as it avoids fixing its own happiness issues.

Having a flat .2 per-citizen unhappiness is easy to understand, helps it fall into line with cities in states other than 'normal city' (occupied, razing, resistance, etc.), and gives you an incentive to puppet temporarily and then annex when it is becoming a happiness drain. As such, I'd argue that any system that didn't adhered to either the needs model or the flat-per-citizen model was the arbitrary system.

G

That sounds fair.

@pineappledan ONE OF US! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

 

[ElliotS]

@Gazebo slap some chaika eyes on that Gazebo and join us!

 

[Deadstarre]

>Espionage:

• Decreased value of early game spy power by 100 (50% weaker) - this value scales downward with Era, so spies naturally get better as the game progresse
  

HAHA, GET REKT ENGLAND !!!111

so by the time Ren. era rolls around, are spies back to normal or less than the current status quo? what exactly does their 'power' affect? sums of gold stolen, time needed for tech stealing?

 

[Tekamthi]

Revolutions system finalized:

• Cities will liberate into free city-states if the losing player lacks an ideology and is not influenced by anyone with an ideology

what happens if all player slots are full? will it ever flip to nearby existing CS? another major?

 

[Deadstarre]

if razing and vassalizing is so strong too, then we should look at it too.

vassals are for the lulz. play with it, have fun with it, maybe disable it when youre ready for the primetime =) nothing needs doing there

 

[pineappledan]

S-Senpai...

Spoiler :

 

[ryanmusante]

Razing gives way more warscore, so you could end the war even quicker.

Selecting to raze causes the warscore to jump immediately? Would it be considered an exploit to "raze" and than cancel the raze within the next few turns in order to keep the city but still benefit from the score?

 

[ElliotS]

Selecting to raze causes the warscore to jump immediately? Would it be considered an exploit to "raze" and than cancel the raze within the next few turns in order to keep the city but still benefit from the score?

Pretty sure it's the act of razing, but only @Gazebo knows for sure.

 

[ashendashin]

S-Senpai...

Spoiler :

View attachment 493689

Begone, bastardized demon. I will stand as a bastion against this onslaught of weebs. I'll continue to be too lazy to pick an avatar and only occasionally read manga, thus limiting the chance of worsening the infection.