Next Beta Preview Changelog

[ElliotS]

Begone, bastardized demon. I will stand as a bastion against this onslaught of weebs. I'll continue to be too lazy to pick an avatar and only occasionally read manga, thus limiting the chance of worsening the infection.

It's dangerous to go alone, take this:

 

[Hinin]

Begone, bastardized demon. I will stand as a bastion against this onslaught of weebs. I'll continue to be too lazy to pick an avatar and only occasionally read manga, thus limiting the chance of worsening the infection.

"Lower your canons and surrender your cities. We will add your cultural and scientific distinctiveness to our own. Your will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

Gather troops at your border
Demand vassalization

 

[Gazebo]

S-Senpai...

Spoiler :

View attachment 493689

My eyes.

Pretty sure it's the act of razing, but only @Gazebo knows for sure.

Warscore increases every time the population drops through razing. Not one big drop when you start.

G

 

[Hinin]

Also, I'm 95 % sure that it is a stupid question, but the apparition of new city-states thanks to the revolution system won't have an influence on the elements which are scaled on the number of CS in the game, right (like the spies) ? This kind of mechanic surely depends on the number of CStates at the beginning of the game, but I wanted to ask anyway.

 

[Iamblichos]

I don't think anything drastic or dramatic needs to happen. Just need some gentle touches. For now, I'm going the simple route of giving puppets a flat 1 unhappiness for every 5 citizens in the city. It goes away when annexed. So puppets will become more problematic the larger they get.

G

Sounds good to me! War is the most fun aspect of the game. So, something soft sounds good...

 

[Gazebo]

Also, I'm 95 % sure that it is a stupid question, but the apparition of new city-states thanks to the revolution system won't have an influence on the elements which are scaled on the number of CS in the game, right (like the spies) ? This kind of mechanic surely depends on the number of CStates at the beginning of the game, but I wanted to ask anyway.

No, they'll affect anything based on 'ever alive' status, but not retroactively. I think it's fine - there will never be enough of them in a game to dramatically alter the landscape.

G

 

[JFD]

Hm, interesting new Revolutions mechanic. I'm a bit out of the loop, admittedly. I'll look into it after the new update, since it would have potential implications for my Loyalty system - which originally had this idea but never really worked properly via Lua alone, so now just flips cities to Barbarians or the original owner (for conquered cities). It would be neat if Colonies could stand out against normal cities that could flip to Free Cities, so I might have to bug you if I can't figure out how to co-opt your system for early than Ideologies

 

[Gazebo]

Hm, interesting new Revolutions mechanic. I'm a bit out of the loop, admittedly. I'll look into it after the new update, since it would have potential implications for my Loyalty system - which originally had this idea but never really worked properly via Lua alone, so now just flips cities to Barbarians or the original owner (for conquered cities). It would be neat if Colonies could stand out against normal cities that could flip to Free Cities, so I might have to bug you if I can't figure out how to co-opt your system for early than Ideologies

Game.DoSpawnFreeCity(pCity) will be the new function. Not sure what you mean re: colonies standing out (i.e. more likely to flip?) I added a lua hook for adding a value to the city selector, so you could use that on colony cities to greatly increase their chances...

GAMEEVENTINVOKE_VALUE(iModifier, GAMEEVENT_CityFlipChance, pLoopCity->GetID(), player->GetID()

G

 

[JFD]

I just meant in terms of my mod - Colonies and non-Colonies do the same (flip to Barbarians when they're Disloyal for too long), but if Colonies can flip to Free Cities instead, that'd give some needed and historically relevant nuance.

That's awesome, am very excited for the feature. Thanks for the hooks.

 

[Gazebo]

I just meant in terms of my mod - Colonies and non-Colonies do the same (flip to Barbarians when they're Disloyal for too long), but if Colonies can flip to Free Cities instead, that'd give some needed and historically relevant nuance.

That's awesome, am very excited for the feature. Thanks for the hooks.

I see, yeah, those hooks can do you what you want. We shall see!

G

 

[Paramecium]

I think the near costless Puppets at the moment are one part of the problem only. I think the bigger part is, that the AI improved very well in waging war. What I see in my current games is, that civs with some kind of combat bonus and taking authority or just progress with an early UU are eating their neighbors, which doesnt have anything like that. It is just like an human with a warmonger civ eating his weak neighbors and then getting the ball rolling.

But I am not sure how to fix that, I think it would take an huge amount of work to make those peacefull civs better playing in defensive wars. But for the long run, I think a change of puppets is necessary and that simple to understand 1 unhappiness per 5 pop is a good start, so you have to think about annexing cities, keeping the usefull ones and razing the useless later on ...

 

[Tantro]

With the proposed changes to puppets there should be a noticeable happiness penalty from each - and increased building maintenance now that the and cap is removed; which in turn gives greater incentive to annexing. I'm hopeful this will be enough, of course we don't want to cripple warfare in VP, just balance it with other play styles. Perhaps one day I'll play Tradition, but that day is not today . . .

Speaking of colonial tendencies. Is it possible for archaeologist to 'rescue' antiquity sites from other nations you are at war with?

Edit: Yes, yes it is. Time to 'rescue and protect' some 'world heritage'!

 

[pineappledan]

Garrison stuff is un-fun and does not play well for the AI (as the AI can get distracted with garrisons easily).

I'll echo what I said a while back in another thread.

AI's don't understand garrisons, but players THINK they do. If there is Zero benefit to putting a garrison in a puppet city, then new, and non-forum players will be at a clear disadvantage. Players think that garrisons are good in cities because:

• they are good in non-puppet cities
• they see the little number above the city go up
• there are policies which reward using garrisons explicitly.
• garrisons are in cities IRL

As of right now there is no intrinsic benefit to having a garrison in a puppet, but players will either be ignorant of that or garrison in Puppets anyways from force of habit.

The puppet mechanics obfuscates the fact that garrisons have no benefit. As a result, you are balancing more for the AI's ability to play the game by hurting a human's ability to grasp the mechanics. Moreover it feels like the game would be tricking players, conditioning them into gameplay habits which are actually hurting them. At the end of the day, remember that you're making this mod for humans. Dumb, fallible humans who are susceptible to psychological shortcuts and suggestion.

 

[ElliotS]

I'll echo what I said a while back in another thread.

AI's don't understand garrisons, but players THINK they do. If there is Zero benefit to putting a garrison in a puppet city, then new, and non-forum players will be at a clear disadvantage. Players think that garrisons are good in cities because:

• they are good in non-puppet cities
• they see the little number above the city go up
• there are policies which reward using garrisons explicitly.
• garrisons are in cities IRL

As of right now there is no intrinsic benefit to having a garrison in a puppet, but players will either be ignorant of that or garrison in Puppets anyways from force of habit.

The puppet mechanics obfuscates the fact that garrisons have no benefit. As a result, you are balancing more for the AI's ability to play the game by hurting a human's ability to grasp the mechanics. Moreover it feels like the game would be tricking players, conditioning them into gameplay habits which are actually hurting them. At the end of the day, remember that you're making this mod for humans. Dumb, fallible humans who are susceptible to psychological shortcuts and suggestion.

Garrisons have the same benefit in defending puppets, maybe more. (because you can't defensive focus puppets) That's a pretty solid reason on it's own, but also the authority culture does get added, albeit it only counts as 0.4 culture until Imperialism.

 

[pineappledan]

For the purposes of this, I would try to ignore specific policies. They only give their value if the policies were actually adopted, but the psychological impact remains

Garrisons in non-puppets contribute to crime, and if you are defending a city, regardless of its status, then of course a garrison makes sense. Otherwise, puppets create a weird conundrum, because if the city is not in a part of the world where fighting it happening, then human players will essentially have to fight their "programming" to realize that there are no penalties to pulling garrisons away from puppet cities to where the fighting is.

 

[ElliotS]

For the purposes of this, I would try to ignore specific policies. They only give their value if the policies were actually adopted, but the psychological impact remains

Garrisons in non-puppets contribute to crime, and if you are defending a city, regardless of its status, then of course a garrison makes sense. Otherwise, puppets create a weird conundrum, because if the city is not in a part of the world where fighting it happening, then human players will essentially have to fight their "programming" to realize that there are no penalties to pulling garrisons away from puppet cities to where the fighting is.

I think it's fine.

 

[Deadstarre]

I think it's fine

I think it's fine

famous last words

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Puppets are one of the more gamey aspects of the game. In history puppets are always a source of dissent (the citizens usually are of a different culture and speak a different language). A garrison in such a situation might be able to ward of anarchy or rebellion, but at a cost of unhappiness. Think Prague 1968.

 

[ryanmusante]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in another thread. There is the new city-state mechanic that will be finalized in new patch. Currently city-states can expand into multiple cities.

If for example, Milan becomes three cities, which one or how many are required to ally with to get the benefits of the luxuries and added contributions?

In my recent game, I was becoming slightly confused with some city-states being conquered and dissappearing while others were expanding. Also, what is required to liberate the now conquered ones?

 

[CrazyG]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in another thread. There is the new city-state mechanic, whereby city states expand into multiple cities.

If for example, Milan becomes 3 cities, which one or how many are required to ally with to get benefits? Or is only one required to gain on order for all 3 cities (luxuries) to be added?

In my recent game, I was becoming slightly confused with some city-states being conquered and dissappearing while others were expanding. Also, what is required to liberate the now conquered ones?

This can get confusing. "Milan" is just one nation. I have 60 influence with Milan and recieve some culture. Milan conquers Panama City (a food CS). I still have 60 influence with just Milan. Panama City the player does not exist, and no one can receive the bonus food. For most benefits, it doesn't matter if a CS controls 1 city or 20, they give you same yields. There are exceptions, like a statecraft policy. The CS would also have a bigger army with more cities.