Next Stage of Agreements with KISS

[fe3333au]

I wouldn't bother to stepdown even as a ruse :shakehead:

Whomp is back from London and just engaged ... so he may be hard to get in touch with ... I'll nevertheless try.

I will also cease giving out too much specifics about our team makeup

ASIDE ... I have noticed that less KISS are available on AIM these days ... especially Tubby ... I strongly suspect from this, that he does not wish to chat with us for fear of inadvertently slipping intel.

eg. That the Republic auction with Nuts was more than a ruse ... and also the embarrasment of being caught out with the slow burn fiasco (originally supplied by Daghie).

Daghie seems to be the main contact for us these days ... he seems a bit more cagey.

I'll try to get some info from Robi (Big Nutter) next chat ... about their diplomacy protocols

Again regarding the Chamnix threat ... I see this as a compliment ... however I might add that we, as a team are playing this game well ... we seem to discuss and analyse each turning point and clarify often ... so good on us

20 turns is good for an agreement annulment clause, I'll bring it up ... may even get a chance to make it seem like their idea

 

[fe3333au]

Chat with Daghie ... he is getting good at being cagey

fe3333au: hey Daghie .. is it you or still one of your daughters
sixpackholiday: just a minute
fe3333au: k

Joke
sixpackholiday: no, it's actually to chief idiot speaking
fe3333au: ummm ... Hi Chief Idiot ..
fe3333au: how you get to be the big chief
sixpackholiday: Hi ... I elect myself without telling anybody

< Spoke about the meeting in London ... Whomp, RIK and awol Ram >
fe3333au: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=130464&page=25 and onwards
sixpackholiday: brb
fe3333au: k

Then on topic
sixpackholiday: sorry for the delay on your questions ... about next step in MTDG
fe3333au: oh ... will we be getting something soon
sixpackholiday: i relly hope so

Throw our Bait
fe3333au: do you really see us as a threat?
sixpackholiday: i wouldn't tell lol

Delay due to ...
sixpackholiday: it's more about details
sixpackholiday: just a sec

I type while he is away ... how we feel
fe3333au: well I would be lying if i said that we are not concerned about your out playing us ... but we didn't feel threatened at all (well before this icy period) ... We also and genuinely feel that you are honourable and so stick to deals ... but this period is very confusing and I must say is making us very very nervous

how we are confused
fe3333au: Nothing we have done would indicate that we are activating our military ... as to the tech lead ... we are going to share as per the deal

... how we want to stay alligned
fe3333au: We are also eager to keep agreement going ...

About the Great Library threat
fe3333au: but the logistics of the great library threat must be addressed ... so if it turns out that you have to go for Education while we go for the other techs ... well then so be it ... it is the only way to go isn't it?

sixpackholiday: back
sixpackholiday: reading

Lastly ... about getting ouit of MA
fe3333au: We have one more tech to research ... Construction ... better to let us know ... so it stops delay in us both going into MA ... But we really need to get some of your ideas ... so we can then look at them and probably send back changes ... I think we will be both hammering out the next Agreements

Responce after reading ... cagey
sixpackholiday: yes, OK, I see your point but I don't want to get tangled up in any details since they're under consideration within team

Straight question ... when ?!?
fe3333au: I understand ... can you answer if we will have an answer by next turn?
sixpackholiday: I am very eager to get something in writing on this asap, but a lot of people has been away on and off...

Bugger that :angry:
fe3333au: Well ... why don't you go with majority
sixpackholiday: cannot promise that but we're aware that it has to be done very soon
fe3333au: if we waited for all our absentees ... we will never get anything done
sixpackholiday: heh
fe3333au: atm ... we are 6 ... and in the mddle of elections

Smaller group easier to liase
sixpackholiday: easier to come to consensus then...maybe
fe3333au: 5 positions to fill LOL
sixpackholiday: right
sixpackholiday: I'd say we have about 15-20 regular posters
fe3333au: maybe not that easy ... if it is 3 vs 3 on a vote ??
sixpackholiday: prez vote count as 2
fe3333au: has never really been an issue ... as we have just debated on and on .. and then usually someone changes their position

< about Whomp >
sixpackholiday: our prez OTOH has been boozing in London, hehe
fe3333au: or the action is modified

< check link above >
fe3333au: I saw pictures ... nice lady is Holly ... actually he was drinking with one of our awol players ... Ram

Worker not necessarily a team roll call
sixpackholiday: yeah, what have W done to deserve her? ... He named a worker Holly.

So trying to get idea on worker numbers
fe3333au: so you naimg all workers or just a few? ... we name them all
sixpackholiday: most of them
fe3333au: so some of your team don't want workers named after them ?
sixpackholiday: after us i presume so you can see us sweat
fe3333au: no after us ... and my worker is actually sunning at the beach at the moment LOL ... he is doing more work than me LOL

< Touche' Sir >
sixpackholiday: You're wondering how many we have

< OK parry ... make it a goodwill service >
fe3333au: not really ... cos if they are named after other people I wouldn't have an idea ... I thought that you may have missed naming one
sixpackholiday: not a big thing the naming buissness really. as anarchists things get done a bit haphazardous
fe3333au: LOL ... the team of entropy

Science Lesson
sixpackholiday: entropy?
fe3333au: increase in choas ... or randomness ... anti-law
sixpackholiday: heh, something like that
fe3333au: it is a law of thermodynamics
sixpackholiday: 1:st or 2:d
fe3333au: systems or bodies tend to go to a state that requires less energy ... 2nd
sixpackholiday: everything tepid
fe3333au: i think 2nd ... long time ago ... liked the law as it described my room
sixpackholiday: energy spreads
sixpackholiday: LOL

Anyway about the Worker
fe3333au: anyway ... just for your information ... the worker named 'worker' is building a road or something in the jungle

< After sharing some scary xmas stories and RL inspiration to Dag's songs >

Signing off
sixpackholiday: ok then, i'll keep pushing team ... but for now it's time to cook some ... as usual hehe
fe3333au: nice ... we really would like something by next turn ... even if it is a note to say we don't like this or that ... cos then we can think about alternatives to write
sixpackholiday: got it
fe3333au: cool

< and again just to stress we want something >
fe3333au: or even if it is ... we agree to these things ... but not these ... anyway you got it .. so cool
sixpackholiday: i'll do my best 4 what it's worth
sixpackholiday: cya
fe3333au: cya

 

[General_W]

fe3333au: do you really see us as a threat?
sixpackholiday: i wouldn't tell lol

Translation = YES! We see you as a threat.

Responce after reading
sixpackholiday: yes, OK, I see your point but I don't want to get tangled up in any details since they're under consideration within team

Translation1: We're trying to decide if we want to kill you or not
Translation2: Please stay distracted for a few more turns so we can get our Gallic Swordsmen in place.

... wow - I'm getting more and more discouraged every time I read these chats. (no fault of Fe's)

Anyone see anything more cheerful in there?

 

[fe3333au]

Tis the reason I'm pushing for Military Defensive discussions atm ... at same time we should still work on the exploration.

 

[peter grimes]

I found something for you, General_W!

Delay due to ...
sixpackholiday: it's more about details

I wish there were more, but so be it. I really think that Whomp will steer things back onto the proper tack. These idiots have a habit of wandering in eight different directions when he's not around.

 

[Chamnix]

I found these interesting:

sixpackholiday: prez vote count as 2
sixpackholiday: our prez OTOH has been boozing in London, hehe

I definitely have to get an agent

 

[classical_hero]

I found these interesting:



I definitely have to get an agent

Ram could have been that guy.

 

[General_W]

Can't help but notice that KISS's cities have been getting bigger while their Military Power has been growing.
Kiss Cities
They are obviously building military units &#8211; and apparently also building military in cities that formerly were producing settlers and workers.

I have 3 questions for KISS&#8230;
Why are you bulking up your military?
Why are you sacrificing continued growth and Development to do it?
Why are you taking so incredibly long to get back to us on any diplomacy?

These three questions may have legitimate answers, but they shout one thing loud and clear... "BEWARE!"

 

[Chamnix]

Interesting questions... certainly we don't want to actually ask them those - let's keep the lighter fluid in the garage for now. Looking at the top 5 history in the looking glass, I would say their capital took about a 12-turn break from producing settlers, but used that time to produce workers not military. It is now back to producing settlers. Dunderhead looks to have been producing workers throughout.

I'm guessing they have legions of workers right now - more than they really need (maybe 2+ per town). Quite honestly they don't have many choices other than military since we won't give them Literature, Map Making, or Currency.

If someone has some time, we could look at old saves and see the population pattern of all the towns that are not foggy to try to figure out exactly what is going on.

Your questions certainly call for wariness but not for panic just yet.

 

[General_W]

I certainly wasn't suggesting we actually ask those questions!

Your explanation for the military buildup is certainly plausible.
(And I wonder what they were thinking when they stopped settler production in favor of workers?!?)

Panic over for now… paranoia continues unabated.

 

[peter grimes]

I might remind us all: KISS has made no secret of the fact that they are planning an invasion of the other lands soon. There is some discrepancy about the timing - but this may simply reflect the preferences of different voices within KISS.

Some want to wait until Gunpowder is in hand, presumably for the exponential increase in defense. Others have mentioned invading immediately upon acquisition of MapMaking. The history of the Military Pop Head regarding kISS certainly shows that there has been a hasty military buildup of late, after a rather dormant period where they were producing less military than us.

The fact that we haven't seen many warriors in the jungle leads me to believe that KISS hasn't made as many escorts as we have. They must be keeping the ones they have close to their settler incubators. But since they've got the Iron hooked up, I'd imagine they are only allowed to produce Gallic Swordsmen.

They could also have produced some Spearmen. Those are the ones that we could take as a warning sign. If they are making spearmen, we know they are expecting us to attack. Maybe we could bring Athens onto a mountain top to peer down onto one of their cities, just to see if it is defended?

 

[General_W]

AW Athens could move 2 tiles North-East and get a look at "SKWTD" - but that could be interpreted as an aggressive move - since they have those workers and settlers nearby.

I'd love to see - but I worry about how they'd interpret that move. (Course, they have no real way of knowing that we can already see that area.)

 

[fe3333au]

Finally the long awaited responce ...

Simply Titles ... Treaty

treaty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Pyro, we're about to finish a proposal and I think you will recieve it before your next turn. See you on AIM later perhaps.

Cheers
Daghie Drumbum

Well at least it is something ... maybe a final spell check

Skippy did mention that they were building up military to take on TNT ... I think that there are many KISSers getting bored with peacetime and eager to resolve some issues made early in the UN threads

 

[fe3333au]

If someone has some time, we could look at old saves and see the population pattern of all the towns that are not foggy to try to figure out exactly what is going on.

Check Post 6 of the Looking Glass

It contains population drops as seen from the world map ... if desired i can also add population rises as well ... just let me know

 

[Chamnix]

Eagerly awaiting their proposal... I am dusting off both my war drum (*BOOM*BOOM*) and my peace pipe (ahhhhhhhhhh!) just in case...

 

[fe3333au]

Finally here it is from Whomp

Hi Werner,

Happy Holidays!
Just to make you aware I am putting some finishing touches on Daghie's agreement tonight and will forward it asap.

Sounds like I just missed you the other night on AIM.

Today my head hurts after my team got together last night.



Talk to you later.

Bernie

No it isn't ... but that does sound positive...ish

 

[General_W]

And here is the long awaited message...

THE X-MAS TREATY

1. Construction will be researched by MIA. After Republic is discovered, KISS will pay MIA gold that equates the cost for full research between discovery of Republic and finishing of Construction.

2. After republic is discovered, each team is free to to trade whatever they want to whomever they want.

3. When entering the Middle Ages MIA starts researching the path to Education. KISS starts researching other technologies. On the discovery of Education, MIA and KISS will excange each others technologies so that the same techs are known by both.

4. KISS will be granted the option to buy MIA's free technology, on discovery, at half the beaker cost.

Enjoy the holiday season!

POTKISS Whomp

Quite frankly, I&#8217;m a little disappointed.

Let me give my gut reaction point by point.

1) What?!? What does &#8220;gold that equates the cost for full research between discovery of Republic and finishing of Construction&#8221; even mean? I seriously don&#8217;t understand. Hopefully this is just my problem and someone more intelligent can explain it to me.

2) So this sounds to me like our Republic trade is off and up for grabs. But maybe this is ok? I think we should insist that KISS give us gold equal to at least half the value of Mathematics (which we&#8217;ve already given them), or include the value of Math in any proposed deal we work out for Republic. If KISS wants to play hardball with us on this &#8211; I&#8217;d be in favor of giving Republic (once we get it) to TNT and Dnuts for ridiculously cheap to thwart KISS making any further deals with them. Afterall &#8211; Republic won&#8217;t do either of them much good.

3) I have the hardest time with this one. We could get eaten alive by another KISS &#8220;slow burn&#8221; on research. Not to mention &#8211; while they rack up all the military techs, they get an enormous head start on invading the other continent while we&#8217;re relegated to the peaceful side of the tree. If we&#8217;re waiting till cavalry to invade &#8211; then this is ok&#8230; but only if KISS isn&#8217;t trading MA techs to the Dnuts and if KISS is actually putting some real effort into getting us some good techs.

4) I think this one is pretty outrageous &#8211; but could be good leverage for us. As much as it hurts &#8211; I think I could agree to this if KISS will promise to trade us Republic at a fair price and promise not to trade any MA techs to the Dnuts.

Ok &#8211; those are just my initial reactions. Looking forward to what you all have to say!

 

[Chamnix]

We finally received workd from KISS. It may just be the tallking, but my initial reaction is that it seems very vague and well, distant, but it is clearly better than war. I started this post before I read General_W's post and considering my current state of mind, it is easier to continue with what I was planning to say instead of reacting to his post. Hopefully, I will be more coherent in the morning.

0. It doesn't mention the trade for Republic. I assume that means they are thinking we are giving everything we have for Republic, which is honestly fine, but I would like to see that spelled out.

1. Gold for the research between Construction and Republic sounds OK, but it gives us an incentive to not research Construction until Republic is completed so we get maximum gold. Good for us, less good for Green Alliance. Why not just agree on exact amount of gold now? Specifically, half the cost of the tech assuming TNT completes it first (as is likely).

2. Trade with whoever. Assuming we are getting Republic, and they are getting all our free techs, what is there to trade except for gold? Why not just agree to split the gold gained from the other continent so we don't have incentive to undercut each other?

3. MIA research to Education. It doesn't make any sense in the context of the Great Library if we get Feudalism or Engineering as our free tech. We can do it if that is the price for peace, but it shows that KISS would rather give a free tech to the other continent than trust MIA - very dissappointing.

4. KISS can buy our free tech for half the beaker cost. Fine, eventually, but again, we are potentially giving Feudalism or Engineering to the other continent for nothing.

So, initial reaction is disappointment, but a lot needs clarifying, and I need to be more sober...

 

[classical_hero]

At least it is better than nothing. the only problem in the lack of clarity WRT Republic but we can sort that out.

 

[Chamnix]

Basically, I think we need answers to the following:

1. Are we trading Map Making, Literature, Polytheism, Currency, and Horseback Riding for Republic?

2. How much is KISS paying for Construction, and how is that amount determined?

3. Could we trade for Construction if we wanted to? How would that work as far as what KISS would pay? We might not want to trade, but I think we might to help out our buddies at TNT.

4. What sense does it make for MIA to research Education if we get Feudalism or Engineering as our free tech? Why are we unnecessarily giving an extra tech to the Great Library holder?

5. What happens if the Great Library has not been built by the time Education is reached?

6. Are there any guidelines regarding research pace? Exchange all techs upon Education leaves the possibility that one side has done significantly more research than the other at that point.

Go Foreign Department!!!