Next tech after Mathematics (turn 84)

[2metraninja]

Guys (and gals ), next turn we get Mathematics. I checked and in the last poll some 20 turns ago we voted for Writing->Math->Currency, but the main choice was between Writing and Monarchy really.

Since then, we decided to not go after Pyramids, some time passed and now, after 2 technologies, I think we can reopen the "whats next" discussion.

As I see it, there are few ways we would want to continue from here.

Path 1 Is the Currency path where we though we would want to go when we last talked about techs. What Currency (13-15 turns to get) will give us is instant +1 trade route in each city (equals to 7 commerce total) and the ability to produce wealth with hammers. Wealth building can be very strong for short-mid term goals. Basically we can get some +40 gpt and keep our science slider at 100% all the time or keep our expansion and building new cities long after the other teams are stopped for maintenance costs. Also we can start building marketplaces with currency (+25% money multiplier and +1 happy for few resources).

Path 2: We get Priesthood (building 1-chop temples in Indira and Teras and in each city we get our religion spread for +1 happy cap) then we tech Monarchy (9 turns with Priesthood bonus). What Monarchy will give us is Hereditary Rule (instant+1 happy cap in each city as we have garrisons everywhere) plus we will get 3 winery for additional +1 happy cap and valuable early trade resources. So this route will give us few very quick 1-2-3 additional citizens in each of Indira, Teras, Daiva and Mantra, which will equal to some 7-8 citizens, everyone working at least 3 commerce tile equals to 21-24 commerce by the time we will have Currency (13-15 turns)

Path 3: Calendar. We get Fishing (2 turns) to allow us to work coastal tiles, which is not bad with FIN, then Sailing (4 turns) for international routes at some point (2 commerce trade route worth instead of just 1 for domestic, so worth 7-8 commerce) and then Calendar (11 turns) for 2 Banana resources and 2 silk resources for +few food and +10 instant commerce and +1 Happy cap. Also 1 happy resource for trading. Great bonus to this path is we will be able to start and most probably get with Marble without rivalry the second best wonder in the game according to Bistrita - the Mausoleum of Mausolos. MoM's power is in 12 turns GAs instead of just 8 turns. Our SPI trait lowers the price for GAs for us, as we can change civics when we want without fearing anarchy, but 48 turns spent in GA instead of 32 (usually there are 4 GAs in a game, then they become hard to get) is like having 2 additional GAs if we have no the MoM. All this is for roughly 17 turns (it says more now, but there are 2 bonuses which apply to Sailing and Calendar).

So now, when we most probably missed the Pyramids and the Representation uber-civic for good, Monarchy looks like not bad option to consider.

Anyone having another tech path in mind?

I would like to hear ideas on different tech paths and comments on the 3 tech paths outlined. We will have some 2-3 turns at 100 money slider at least anyway before we have collected money to start on even the smaller tech path I outlined. (except for if we want to get Priesthood first (1-2 turns) for temples and just then think about further tech path.

 

[whb]

Personally, I'd think about
Priesthood -> Currency -> Monarchy

I don't think it's so much a matter of "paths" as of removing bottlenecks to growth and leveraging advantages. Cash and easy culture to support expansion without stalling.

With SPI, we ought to take advantage of half-price temples, and we'll get some mitigation of the cost in the additional Judaism spread (fewer missionaries needed and 25% building bonus sooner). Also lets us gradually build a GP for shrine income and further spread. I think we should be running a couple of scientists in one city to get a GS, and a priest in another to get the one GP we need. Priesthood is dirt cheap and comes with big advantages.

I'd then be tempted to go currency next, as the extra trade route helps finance expansion without stalling. The +7 commerce per turn comes free -- without having to constrain the tiles the cities work. And of course markets play nicely with the shrine income, capital 8 commerce, and the flood plain / grassland cottages we've been building. And we also want Priesthood before building too many markets because we'd like a 25% Org Rel building bonus, for which we need religion to spread.

But then I've seen a few SP games where expansion has got the economy in a hole and without Currency the hole is much harder to get out of, as you have to slowly tech Currency before you can build cash, marketplaces, run merchants, etc.

But it also depends on what "known tech" bonuses we get. Do RB, etc, have Currency but not Monarchy, etc.

 

[talonschild]

One thing I think we need above all - money. Happiness is an excellent secondary goal, inasmuch as it allows us to get more money. What I see these options as being is different paths to happiness. Currency mostly skips straight to money, though with Calendar the Market adds happiness (from Silk) as well as money.

Priesthood is good for temples as a boost to our religion - and we oughta snag a GP at some point, too. Calendar allows more hapiness resources. And Monarchy allows HR. I'm willing to forgo Monarchy, because I think we can get enough happiness from the others for now. Personally, I think either Currency-Calendar or Calendar-Currency, for the synergy. Priesthood next.

 

[cav scout]

Currency next for the cash.

 

[Arkipeller]

currency-priesthood-monarchy

I usually do commerce over happiness

 

[whb]

How many turns would priesthood be? Wouldn't be surprised if it's only about 2 or 3 turns. (Cost 60 vs 400 for currency)

 

[2metraninja]

I think you all guys fail to see the direct and straight connection and dependence between happy and commerce. +1 happy pop in Indira means direct +3 commerce from being able to work 1 more new cottage. And because in Indira we have Library, this comes as 3.75 beakers. With Teras the situation is the same - we are at happy cap and we have cottages not worked. We can have +1 worked cottage in just one turn after we discover Priesthood and chop Temple there.

 

[2metraninja]

How many turns would priesthood be? Wouldn't be surprised if it's only about 2 or 3 turns. (Cost 60 vs 400 for currency)

Exactly 1 turn. Then 1 more turn to chop temple in Indira and grow to size 8 - voila - we have 3 commerce per turn more. In the next turn we do the same for Terasvin - hop - 3 more commerce there. So in just 5 turns after Priesthood, we will have one of the benefits of Currency, which will start to give fruits after 15 turns. 10 turns 6 commerce more and growing cottages to hamlets? No?

 

[talonschild]

Based on te price of Priesthood - I'd forgotten - let's do that first.

 

[YossarianLives]

PH next makes sense to me. The difference is vertical growth or horizontal growth. PH lets us grow our existing cities bigger, Currency lets us plant new cities. Since we have good tiles to grow onto, a short 1-turn detour to PH will help a lot.

 

[cav scout]

Ok, I like Priesthood->Currency

 

[Maga_R]

1 -turn priesthood and 1-chop temples sound good What about construction for cats?

 

[talonschild]

I would prefer to delay Construction in favour of economy/happiness techs. As I see it, Priesthood-Currency-Calendar. Then Construction, maybe, or one of a host of other possibilities I haven't considered.

Fringe benefit to Calendar I just thought of - Centering the map. Gets us a fix on our positions and those of our neighbours, and will let us extrapolate a few more particulars about this world.

 

[2metraninja]

We must see, but after Priesthood Monarchy might be just 7-8 turns away, where Currency is still solid 15 turns away. I will make a comparison of Monarchy vs Currency vs Calendar returns up to turn 100 and will report numbers. It might turn that Monarchy->Currency or Monarchy->Calendar approach gives us both techs way faster than the other way around.

As for catapults, I love those Also, construction gives bridges over rivers. Which with our many rivers can be important.

 

[vranasm]

at this point of game worked cottages usually serve as mean of getting more commerce to pay for maintenance usually.

the PH distraction seems reasonable with only 1t teching, but don't forget it means you use accumulated beakers OF into PH and not currency, so it's not like we don't pay anything.(edit: or accumulated gold as I saw the SS now)

I probably wouldn't go monarchy before currency from memory of the tests. While it's true HR offers +1 happy instantly everywhere, currency offers +3-4 gpt per each mine if we decide so.

We have already opened borders with RB and expect to make connection? even better...a bunch of +2 TR's would mean almost riverside cottage worked and again...we get more trade routes even in cities without cottages.

even if it seems like "meh monarchy takes only 7 turns and currency 15 let's take monarchy since it's 'quicker'" you usually choke yourself down if you still expand with cities since monarchy allows more pops in new cities, but the cities need time to repay, where currency can offer us to use older cities to fund the growth time of new cities.

I think we can't hunt military techs before currency, crossing fingers all the time that some crazy neighbor won't choke us with bad war.

I am yet again a bit out of touch with the situation, but I guess we have 6 cities? each new city will cost ~7-11 gpt steadily growing... toroidal makes it even worse.

 

[2metraninja]

the PH distraction seems reasonable with only 1t teching, but don't forget it means you use accumulated beakers OF into PH and not currency, so it's not like we don't pay anything.(edit: or accumulated gold as I saw the SS now)

Yeah, sure, it comes at cost (gold as you noted), but the benefit starts quicker, which is important and good thing. You call it distraction, but for me lately it seemed like really reasonable step/choice which was sane to take instead of following what we though will be best 20 turns ago.

I probably wouldn't go monarchy before currency from memory of the tests.

I went back to read and the main choice there was between Writing and Monarchy. With the library in Indira, running scientists, we produce half our empire beaker output right now, which is good. With an academy in 14 turns, once built in Indira, she will have 75% bonus for beakers. There are many cotteageable land around Indira and hell a lot of food to grow Indira fast once we have a happiness. So every cottage in Indira will be as good as two cottages elsewhere. But we need happiness to grow Indira to size 10-12 to actually work these cottages and get the crazy 75% bonus.

While it's true HR offers +1 happy instantly everywhere, currency offers +3-4 gpt per each mine if we decide so.

But the same 3 gpt (plus a handy 2 food to keep food neutral balance and leave city grow) is offered by a brand new riverside cottage. And the most important - it grows! So it becomes only stronger from here. I love having an option to turn hammers in to gold, but this is short-to-mid term tool, while we are here in the beginning of the game and must plan for long-term. Yes, I can say too that building wealth can allow us to settle way more land than the other teams who are not building wealth, thus we can grab more land from our neighbors and end up having bigger empire, which will pay us back in the future, but I think we have already quite determined borders and risking a war over 1-2 cities more is not a good idea now I think.

We have already opened borders with RB and expect to make connection? even better...a bunch of +2 TR's would mean almost riverside cottage worked and again...we get more trade routes even in cities without cottages.

Yes, this is general consideration about Currency. With international traderoutes we can quadruple the current 7 currency per turn from our 7 cities with 1 domestic trade route each, but I think we are not even close to having connected trade route with RB. Spaniards are closer, but we have no OB with them, neither with Uciv. So in the next 15-20 turns, I dont see international trade routes.

even if it seems like "meh monarchy takes only 7 turns and currency 15 let's take monarchy since it's 'quicker'"

Timing does matters. Bureaucracy probably will be better tech to get than both Monarchy and Currency, but she will come after 30-40 or more turns??? Do we wait for that? What about Communism? We can expand infinitely when we get that, but should we wait for it and not get the closer economic techs first to keep us going until the time for more expensive tech come?

you usually choke yourself down if you still expand with cities since monarchy allows more pops in new cities, but the cities need time to repay, where currency can offer us to use older cities to fund the growth time of new cities.

If I understand what you are saying correct, you refer to using building wealth in our older cities to pay the maintenance of the newer smaller and still not profitable cities we will plant? But if we can grow those older cities bigger, isnt it the same - one cottage more will pay just as one mine from the old cities? While we will still have our mines to work and produce military, settlers, workers, missioners, etc for the new cities.

Best would be to take the time and make a sandbox from our current situation so we can both (and anyone else interested) can test things and compare results up to turn 100 or 110? I'll see if I can make it tonight, we have few turns/days to test that, as we will need to run 100% for at least 3-4 turns before switching back to 100% science anyway.

I think we can't hunt military techs before currency, crossing fingers all the time that some crazy neighbor won't choke us with bad war.

Yes, it is my belief too that we must build up our empire and run minimal army if we have that luxury, and as it seems, we are not directly threatened by anyone yet. Things can change quick of course, so we must keep our eyes open.

I am yet again a bit out of touch with the situation, but I guess we have 6 cities? each new city will cost ~7-11 gpt steadily growing... toroidal makes it even worse.

We have already 7 cities, but you are probably right that next cities will cost increasingly more. But this only speaks in favor of fewer and bigger cities for the moment to avoid the maintenance cost for new small and unproductive cities. This just screams "Monarchy!" and "Size 10-12 cities"

 

[vranasm]

but you need to invest natural production somewhere.... I saw a lot of choked empires to know how bad it can get .

Sandbox would be great, I promise I will invest some time to test again.

You mistake there a bit cottages for gpt... it isn't the same thing. commerce is just commerce and is changed with slider either to gpt or bpt.
Building wealth changing mines to gpt source will move our slider higher.

I think we agree with each other we need both (monarchy and currency) after the PH detour. We need to find the order.

From my experience currency will do since it is very useful hammer dump above all.

CS is not hot topic before we solve monarchy x currency... in SP it is usually good tech since you usually end expansion around 6-7 cities thus increasing commerce by 50% in capital has more impact, but seems to me like we're heading somewhere to 11-12 cities expansion and CS won't cut it...

and again...best effect you can get from CS is when you can run high slider...aka getting currency and building wealth.
I usually like to get around 200 BC latest currency in Sp games... sooner better of course. if I choked currency up to 1 AD I knew I screwed up early game .

As per first GP... the slider will steadily drop (hopefully) we could even think about settling him instead of academy since if you run 0% slider for really long time you won't get more then like 3 bpt from academy, where settling is 6*1.25

Since we most probably won't stop running 2 scientists in cap after the first GS (or do we change?) the capital has limited growth potential anyway and we can aim for some more helper cities (the west pigs were probably not settled yet?)

 

[2metraninja]

Although lately we are doing very well in one sphere of the demographics and this is Production, where we are between third and first position, the hammer production itself gives not big benefit and cant be used to increase quick our standing in the 2 more important categories - GNP and Food. Where, we have one hidden very powerful weapon, which can give us increase in each and every of the two other categories and that is our FOOD potential.

These are our demographics at emphasized food for the cost of lowered production mode:


Those are with 4-5 unimproved green tiles worked, which can be easily turned in to farms. Normally, now we have 90 food and 36 hammers empire-wide. with the farms we can improve, this comes to 12 food exchanged for 16 hammers (1.33 coins/beakers per 1 food). Which is not a good conversation if we then have to turn hammers in to coins via building wealth. If we use this food to grow and increase the number of cottages worked, this will give us way better returns. Or even in the worst case scenario if we use specialists in our libraries, we can have better conversation rate of 1.5 beakers per 1 food.

Our capitol have enough food to grow fast to at least size 12-15 with MP happiness. Those will be 12-15 tiles each generating at least 4 commerce per turn. Thats about 60 commerce a turn. With size 7 capitol, the commerce generated by capitol cottages will be like 30. Double base commerce? Put this in library/academy 75% bonus and this comes to 52 beakers compared to 105 beakers. We will lose 50+ beakers if we keep our capitol at size 7. How many gold we will get from building wealth? We have at best 35 hammers empire-wide. Plus 7 free commerce from +1 trade routes from Currency? Thats about 42-45 gold. Compared to 50+ beakers. And mind you, as a bonus, we will have the 35 hammers to build buildings to invest in our future (markets, libraries, monasteries etc) and units to protect our homeland. Thats like an axe each turn minced in the meat grinder and sold for coins only to keep up with size 14 capitol working cottages.

And this is only taking in to account Indira. Other cities will be allowed to grow bigger too. What can bring us 6 cities to grow at least 2 citizens each more? Thats 12 citizens. Whip them if you cant find a good work for them. Thats 12 axes or 3-4 settlers more.

And what is even best, Monarchy comes twice earlier, so we can start seeing the benefit in 8-9 turns, instead of waiting 15-16.

This of course is on theory. I will make the sandbox tonight and then we can see for real.

edit: crosspost with vranasm.

 

[vranasm]

the units you use for MP happiness have its cost too.

I actually now think about one really crazy idea in the monarchy x currency discussion... it is called CoL...

toroidal is higher maintenance then usually... will have to check the maintenance costs of cities once you build sandbox to have clearer mind on this

caste could be neat to convert our food into specs (scientists/merchants).

How it's done in MP with trade missions? do you need some kind of approve from other teams?

 

[2metraninja]

the units you use for MP happiness have its cost too.

Yes, they do. Nothing comes completely for free. But not that much. With increased population we get more and more free units. And we already have 1 unit per city to avoid the "we fear for our safety" unhappiness. So with wines, we get +2 happy cap in each of our cities (the +2 free pop I was talking about).

I actually now think about one really crazy idea in the monarchy x currency discussion... it is called CoL...

Yes, we will need CoL at some point and not that distant. We can see with the sandbox.

caste could be neat to convert our food into specs (scientists/merchants).

We will have few libraries to run scientists, but I doubt mass specialists could be good in the long run. Although with our SPI trait, I would be definitely happy to be able to use Caste. Either for rushing GPs, for using the excess food in a cities where we wait for a whipping anger to wear off, or for quick popping of borders running an Artist for 3-4 turns.

How it's done in MP with trade missions? do you need some kind of approve from other teams?

Generally, you need approval, but it is not that hard if you have even semi friends. Sneaking in a GM with virtual double-move is also possibility as a last resort