Ngomele civilization, a modmodmod for Orbis

[Ahwaric]

I did not have time to read much here recently, and I need to check the details.
Some thoughts for now.

Hmm... Well, if you wanted to go the cheap, easy way, make several clones of each terrain type, increasing the terrains food, hammers, or commerce...

Please do not. And I really really please.
Try to keep additions to minimum. No civ-specific terrains. Features - only when really needed, but please do not. Bonuses - same.
It makes map crowded with things not every civ can use and that casues many problems. Or just makes other things more complicated.
For example: you add new terrain to get extra . So, every improvement has to be defined again on which terrain it can appear. Same applies to spells. That is a lot of work. No way I am going to rewrite all this for one civ. You, of course, can, but it will make Ngomele much lass likely to be included in the main mod.
Also, all such additions make it hard for new players to learn the new features. And both FfH and Orbis have already steep learning curves.
If you REALLY need something on the map, make it improvement. But better keep it as building in city, it is really the best way - including easy changes when the city is conquered by another race or razed and a new city is build there.

In short words: keep it simple. "A designer knows he achieved perfection..." - we all know this sentence.

Huh, I don't get it: I'm trying to add a building graphic (the Mage College imported by Walter Hawkwood from Kohan 2) but I can't get it to work. Here is the ArtDefine:

First of all, most of the buildings from Kohan are already used (including this one). This is less of an issue than duplicating unit art, but still would be better if you use another art.
In the resources pack I think the wood resource could be nice for the council tree - it has no doors, but looks like a Baobab, so would fit the flavour.
The art form Kohan needs a big scale 15-20, they are small. Also, the gauri buildings that come with FfH patch are somewhat broken, if they will not be fixed in the next patch I will attach my own versions directly from Walter's thread.

I think my idea of food carrying is more clear now. Let's have a text:

Each time a unit wins a fight, it has a chance of dropping a "Meat Chariot". This item can be taken by any unit and dropped after, like any item. When carried, it adds the "Food carried I" promotion. When the unit wins a fight while having this promotion, it has a chance of gaining "Food carried II"; this can upgrade till "Food carried V".

This is again, too complicated IMHO. First, decide if you want create meat chariot or gain promotion. There is no need for both I think. Also, the food spoiling is realistic but first, harder to code, second, too realistic It is easier to remeber if the time is constant.
Also, the tag that allows specific number of turns befor promotion will expire is not in Orbis. It can be imported from FF, but it is SDK and I did not really need it so far.

I think the least micro management would come from soul forge mechanics. Maybe tie it to unique smokehouse or hunter's lodge? Maybe it does not need to be unique, python allows many things.
It would not allow specific spells though, so maybe one food promotion for the spells and soul forge mechanics together?

One more - try to make your buildings replace already existing ones. It makes civ more unique - i.e. governor's manor instead of courthouse is more flavourfull and requires less code than having both in one city. Also, there are less buildings that need to be build and they are easier to learn.
You can link them to any tech, the limiting factor is really light. You already did it for most of the buildings, but I think that i.e. council tree can replace forbidden palace

 

[Opera]

Please do not. And I really really please.
Try to keep additions to minimum. No civ-specific terrains. Features - only when really needed, but please do not. Bonuses - same.
It makes map crowded with things not every civ can use and that casues many problems. Or just makes other things more complicated.
For example: you add new terrain to get extra . So, every improvement has to be defined again on which terrain it can appear. Same applies to spells. That is a lot of work. No way I am going to rewrite all this for one civ. You, of course, can, but it will make Ngomele much lass likely to be included in the main mod.
Also, all such additions make it hard for new players to learn the new features. And both FfH and Orbis have already steep learning curves.
If you REALLY need something on the map, make it improvement. But better keep it as building in city, it is really the best way - including easy changes when the city is conquered by another race or razed and a new city is build there.

In short words: keep it simple. "A designer knows he achieved perfection..." - we all know this sentence.

I've heard you. I think it'd be best not to add too many things. If I could modify yields with buildings in the XML, I'd do it. If I must use Python instead, well, I'll do it nonetheless. It may be hard to track though... Or maybe I can check if the building was in the city when it's taken or razed and decrease yields consequently. Would be particularly troublesome but could work. However, I think it will not be included in the building summary... So strategy text won't be optional

First of all, most of the buildings from Kohan are already used (including this one). This is less of an issue than duplicating unit art, but still would be better if you use another art.
In the resources pack I think the wood resource could be nice for the council tree - it has no doors, but looks like a Baobab, so would fit the flavour.
The art form Kohan needs a big scale 15-20, they are small. Also, the gauri buildings that come with FfH patch are somewhat broken, if they will not be fixed in the next patch I will attach my own versions directly from Walter's thread.

I took them directly from Walter Hawkwood thread. Don't get why they don't work.
I'd be glad to use any other graphics; I just don't have anything else that fits. The wood resource is good, though.

This is again, too complicated IMHO. First, decide if you want create meat chariot or gain promotion. There is no need for both I think. Also, the food spoiling is realistic but first, harder to code, second, too realistic It is easier to remeber if the time is constant.
Also, the tag that allows specific number of turns befor promotion will expire is not in Orbis. It can be imported from FF, but it is SDK and I did not really need it so far.

I think the least micro management would come from soul forge mechanics. Maybe tie it to unique smokehouse or hunter's lodge? Maybe it does not need to be unique, python allows many things.
It would not allow specific spells though, so maybe one food promotion for the spells and soul forge mechanics together?

So, you mean adding a soul-forge building and a promotion gained after combat? If so, it is what I wanted to do in the first place I think a item would be useful though, being disposable and usable by another unit. I really like adding a unit specialized in food transport

One more - try to make your buildings replace already existing ones. It makes civ more unique - i.e. governor's manor instead of courthouse is more flavourfull and requires less code than having both in one city. Also, there are less buildings that need to be build and they are easier to learn.
You can link them to any tech, the limiting factor is really light. You already did it for most of the buildings, but I think that i.e. council tree can replace forbidden palace

This reminds me one question: what are the civbuilding tags for? Just there for unique buildings that don't replace any other one? Because I used them for Shurmbumgwu and Council Tree but I was able to build them with the Grigori... and they aren't even mentioned as unique building, I noticed.

I greatly appreciate your thoughts, Ahwaric. They make me settle my mind

 

[arkham4269]

I'm afraid while I've been skimming this thread, I've may have missed this if it's been put out.

The Ngomele, do they have a 'historical' enemy and friends? If using flavored start, about where/what type of area would they end up?

Obviously it would be in the primer for this race, but what unit would they really be known for? I mean the Hippus are known for their cavalry and the Calibim for their vampire lords, so which unit really epitomizes this race?

I must agree with others who say this looks interesting.

 

[Opera]

The Ngomele, do they have a 'historical' enemy and friends?

I don't know. Currently, I've thought of them in some isolation. Using this map, I'll say they are located south of Shazak. It's the only isthmus that convince me. It would be mostly plains with, northward, jungle. They would certainly be displeased by it and would stick to their plains. So, according to their location, they would know Lanun, Clan, Bannor and maybe Elohim. Clan proximity is a surprisingly good thing as gnolls may seem related to savages. I don't know how they would like each others though. Maybe not well since gnolls would have chosen to remain with themselves rather than ally with other savages. I'm pleased to think that Lanun and Ngomele would like each other, trading mostly alcohol (one thing the Ngomele are very good at making). The Bannor won't have an opinion. They would not regard them as dangerous nor very important. The Elohim would certainly be kind to them.

Obviously it would be in the primer for this race, but what unit would they really be known for? I mean the Hippus are known for their cavalry and the Calibim for their vampire lords, so which unit really epitomizes this race?

Good question. I'll answer that, just let me think

I must agree with others who say this looks interesting.

I'm glad you think so

 

[Valkrionn]

Can't wait to try a beta version.

 

[Opera]

Can't wait to try a beta version.

I may need a bit of input! I'm trying to figure out what will be the religious promotions that Ngomele units will get when built and having a religion. As I said before, this promotion are there to symbolize the merging of the Green Sea faith and one of the Orbis religions (including CotD). As for now, I think RoK will get two promotions. The effects of the first one are unknown but I know this one would be automatically gained upon production; the second one would only be available to high level units having the first promotion already: it would just add +1 Earth affinity. As for the others, I have little idea, if it isn't for the one concerning terrain (Forest for FoL, hills for RoK, seas for OO, etc.). So, I would like to hear anyone's ideas

Maybe unique religious buildings replacing the original ones... Mostly for increasing some tiles with it. For example, the temple of Kilmorph would add +1 or +1 to hills; the temple of OO would add bonus to coast tiles. But temples of FoL, Order, Empy, CoE and AV would most likely don't mess with yields. I admit that FoL could (Forests namely) but I don't want to tie yields changes to such easily erased things as forests. The other religions aren't really tied to nature for adding anything of this kind.

Thus & BTW, I think Ngomele leaders would be more inclined towards OO, RoK and FoL (weights-wise). Those religions would certainly mean more to them than any of the others. So maybe this three will get a kind of special treatment; RoK would modify hills yields and enables a powerful high level promotion (since the Ngomele begins with 1 Earth mana and that they can have 1 more with the Tablets of Bambur); FoL and OO would gain different benefits, trying to be diverse. However, Order, Empy, CoE, AV and CotD would have one promotion for units following them (those are mildly interesting) and that's all.

It may seem kind of restricting for the player but I think it is a nice compromise between gameplay and lore.

 

[civ_king]

I want Beta!!!!

 

[Ahwaric]

I've heard you. I think it'd be best not to add too many things. If I could modify yields with buildings in the XML, I'd do it. If I must use Python instead, well, I'll do it nonetheless. It may be hard to track though...

Good
I will try to think of a way to do it, but I got sick and everythig takes much more time to do

I took them directly from Walter Hawkwood thread. Don't get why they don't work.

Strange. But I think the mage college is already used, not sure but I think for Tablets of Bambur. You may try it.

So, you mean adding a soul-forge building and a promotion gained after combat? If so, it is what I wanted to do in the first place I think a item would be useful though, being disposable and usable by another unit. I really like adding a unit specialized in food transport

Glad to hear it. 5 promotions is a mess too. But if I can do something via promotion, I do it as it is the least messy way
Regarding an item, you do not need it for it. Just use PromotionInStackPrereq tag in spell info - it will allow you to pick the food from another unit, but it will not allow it to exist on itself in the wild. I do not think food laying around would survive a single night in Erebus

This reminds me one question: what are the civbuilding tags for? Just there for unique buildings that don't replace any other one? Because I used them for Shurmbumgwu and Council Tree but I was able to build them with the Grigori... and they aren't even mentioned as unique building, I noticed.

That is the exact function - to allow adding buildings that are not simple replacement of other, without adding a new buildingclass everytime. They do not show as unique, because there is no default building they replace. Xienwolf changed the way the display work, but that involves some big changes and I am not sure I am ready for this.
CivBuiling classes are nice and usefull, but you need to remeber that you can't restrict them to i.e. just one for civ, as there are other buildings affected. The number allowed is the only thing affected by building class save for replacing.
Strage thing with the grigori, should not happen.

Clan proximity is a surprisingly good thing as gnolls may seem related to savages. I don't know how they would like each others though. Maybe not well since gnolls would have chosen to remain with themselves rather than ally with other savages. I'm pleased to think that Lanun and Ngomele would like each other, trading mostly alcohol (one thing the Ngomele are very good at making). The Bannor won't have an opinion. They would not regard them as dangerous nor very important. The Elohim would certainly be kind to them.

Remeber that Orcs are not simple savages in FfH. That fits Doviello more.
In fact I think making Orcs default barbs, while perfect in most fantasy settings, does not fit the flavour that much. Clan and all orcs are fanatical to Bhall, they are savages with hellish agenda.
I do not particulary like it, prefer them as savages, but you need to remeber that they will not be friendly to barbarians that want to be left alone. No, they want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. And her fire, too. Or even more.
I am sure Bannor would not be neutral. "Savages, looking like disgusting hyenas? Eating people? Whan can I enlist to a crusade that will kill them all? They can't be converted, we need to kill them all." I think thet is how would Bannor react.

I may need a bit of input! I'm trying to figure out what will be the religious promotions that Ngomele units will get when built and having a religion. As I said before, this promotion are there to symbolize the merging of the Green Sea faith and one of the Orbis religions (including CotD). As for now, I think RoK will get two promotions. The effects of the first one are unknown but I know this one would be automatically gained upon production

With Xienwolf's code that I added to Orbis, you can do wonders with promotions.
You do not need a promotion that is gained on unit building unless you want specifically award units that were build when the religion was a state one. If not, just add a promotion with special requirements that is automatically gained when the reqs are met. SO you might need just one promo for RoK instead of two, and that is better
Check knightly orders - all is done using the above mechanics:
Squire is to mark unit as having joined order, so you do not need this one. Then, at lvl 6 you get right promotion depending on the state religion (with the exception of dragon knights). And if you change to the wrong religion, you get mutiny one, which will go away if you change religion back.

It may seem kind of restricting for the player but I think it is a nice compromise between gameplay and lore.

You should not make them selected religions heavy - try to make it more equal. FfH is all about what if and making your own path. I learned it the hard way when I disabled empyrean for calabim. Thet is one religion vampires would never follow, but people complained thet they want to make them repent. And I can understand that.
Once you release Ngomele into the wild, they will get the life on their own.

Talking of which, when you have something done, please share at least the modified editor. I am going to post an update soon(hard to tell precise date, I am almost two weeks late from the original one ), so maybe for the next one .
When I do, you will have some work to do with updating. I know what it feels to update to FfH, FF, and flavour mod changes, so might save you some trouble. At least I will try to make general schema compatibile so you do not need to edit visual basic every time.

 

[Opera]

Good
I will try to think of a way to do it, but I got sick and everythig takes much more time to do

Poor you! Right now, I think I will update yields when the building is built; when the city is taken, I will check if the civ is Ngomele or not and if not I will check if the building is present (we'll be never capturable) and if yes, I will change yields accordingly.

Glad to hear it. 5 promotions is a mess too. But if I can do something via promotion, I do it as it is the least messy way
Regarding an item, you do not need it for it. Just use PromotionInStackPrereq tag in spell info - it will allow you to pick the food from another unit, but it will not allow it to exist on itself in the wild. I do not think food laying around would survive a single night in Erebus

I did not know I could do that. That's brilliant

That is the exact function - to allow adding buildings that are not simple replacement of other, without adding a new buildingclass everytime. They do not show as unique, because there is no default building they replace. Xienwolf changed the way the display work, but that involves some big changes and I am not sure I am ready for this.
CivBuiling classes are nice and usefull, but you need to remeber that you can't restrict them to i.e. just one for civ, as there are other buildings affected. The number allowed is the only thing affected by building class save for replacing.
Strage thing with the grigori, should not happen.

I will test to see if this happens again. I tried to enable the display of buildingclass_civ_building1 in the civilization screen in the pedia but I failed

Remeber that Orcs are not simple savages in FfH. That fits Doviello more.
In fact I think making Orcs default barbs, while perfect in most fantasy settings, does not fit the flavour that much. Clan and all orcs are fanatical to Bhall, they are savages with hellish agenda.
I do not particulary like it, prefer them as savages, but you need to remeber that they will not be friendly to barbarians that want to be left alone. No, they want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. And her fire, too. Or even more.
I am sure Bannor would not be neutral. "Savages, looking like disgusting hyenas? Eating people? Whan can I enlist to a crusade that will kill them all? They can't be converted, we need to kill them all." I think thet is how would Bannor react.

Ew. They have a nasty enemy so. Thinking of it, it may take a lot of neutrality or evilness to accept their rites of eating the defeated...

With Xienwolf's code that I added to Orbis, you can do wonders with promotions.
You do not need a promotion that is gained on unit building unless you want specifically award units that were build when the religion was a state one. If not, just add a promotion with special requirements that is automatically gained when the reqs are met. SO you might need just one promo for RoK instead of two, and that is better
Check knightly orders - all is done using the above mechanics:
Squire is to mark unit as having joined order, so you do not need this one. Then, at lvl 6 you get right promotion depending on the state religion (with the exception of dragon knights). And if you change to the wrong religion, you get mutiny one, which will go away if you change religion back.

So, I can make any unit that have OO as religion (state religion is irrelevant here) automatically gain a promotion? I would like to do that for RoK too but plus there will be a high level promotion.

You should not make them selected religions heavy - try to make it more equal. FfH is all about what if and making your own path. I learned it the hard way when I disabled empyrean for calabim. Thet is one religion vampires would never follow, but people complained thet they want to make them repent. And I can understand that.

Yes, I agree with that. The other thing is that nothing should be exactly the same; I'm trying to make it diverse in giving different possibility for the different religions. I'm not disabling religions, just pushing them a bit towards some that are more fitting lorewise. But the other will get bonus too.

Once you release Ngomele into the wild, they will get the life on their own.

This will be fun I'm not sure when they will be ready though. I'm just training in python nowadays in order to gain some experience, so... may have to wait a little.

Talking of which, when you have something done, please share at least the modified editor. I am going to post an update soon(hard to tell precise date, I am almost two weeks late from the original one ), so maybe for the next one .
When I do, you will have some work to do with updating. I know what it feels to update to FfH, FF, and flavour mod changes, so might save you some trouble. At least I will try to make general schema compatibile so you do not need to edit visual basic every time.

Okay then. I attached the current editor I use. However, it misses the art defines for the leaders and buildings; it also misses the building class infos and the unit class infos. But since I think you won't need them right now, it's fine, right?

BTW, why those aren't in the editor? It could be nice to have them, don't you think?

Off topic note: as I'm working on a few projects at the same time (I'm of the spreading kind, can't focus on a single thing) all concerning Orbis (thus not counting non-Civ related projects ), I'm having a bit of trouble to separate them all in the editor. For example, as I've already mentioned it, I'm working on adding a bunch of minor leaders; however if I edit the editor for them, it won't be easy to separate them from the Ngomele... huh.

 

[arkham4269]

Remeber that Orcs are not simple savages in FfH. That fits Doviello more.

In fact I think making Orcs default barbs, while perfect in most fantasy settings, does not fit the flavour that much. Clan and all orcs are fanatical to Bhall, they are savages with hellish agenda.

I do not particulary like it, prefer them as savages, but you need to remeber that they will not be friendly to barbarians that want to be left alone. No, they want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. And her fire, too. Or even more.

I would contend that the Doviello are not savages and neither are the CoE. The term savage is always used by 'civilized' cultures about those that don't understand. The Doviello don't like cities, they have a harsh (like the Spartans) ideal of if you are weak, your dead weight and the cultural practices reflect that. I see them as living Nietzsche's creed about what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Now the orcs of the CoE aren't savages either, barbarians perhaps but that is also just another culturally loaded term. As you said, the want to conquer and spread Bhall's word. This doesn't make them savages or barbarians, just fanatics. Personally, I see the 'orc savage' units as the barbarian orc. I've asked that someday as the FiRe code becomes available in FF, that we get barbarian dwarves and elves as well that would represent those pockets of people who survived the Age of Ice but didn't have a ideal or charismatic leader to keep them from falling into savagery.

However, it is so typical of cultures like the Kuriotates or the Amurites and the like to label them barbarians or savages just because instead of building lots of 'civilized' amenities, they build warrens and produce more troops. In many respects, the CoE is no different than the Bannor. In fact I've noticed quite a few of the the Great People pop-ups point out the hypocrisy of the Bannor. I guess a culture that takes the time to build a library or two get's to be intense but if you are orcs on a mission you are a savage. Yes the ideas about 'savages' and 'barbarians' gets to me. I mean the Japanese did some truly horrible things to Allied troops during WW II but it was okay for the US to firebomb Tokyo and nuke cities. In most histories the Japanese were savage and evil while the US merely 'had to do what had to be done' which is just the polite way of saying we won and we get to write the history books. (And please before anyone gets indignant and says we did it to end the war just know I was an intel analyst for 17.5 years and have written a lengthy college papers on ways we could have demonstrated the atomic bomb without actually using it on a city so I'm not just talking out of my ass here.)

...and I'm preaching. Sorry. I spent a year preparing to go to Afghanistan and then a year there and spent a LOT of time CONSTANTLY trying to point out out to lots of soldiers who hadn't been 100 miles from their home that just because people do things differently than you doesn't make them stupid, evil or barbaric. (sigh)

Oh, historical note: the Norse were called barbarians by the many Europeans living in abject squalor. The only major difference was they had a few literate monks to write down how terrible the Vikings were for being smart enough to sack places with stuff to steal and to weak to defend it!

 

[Opera]

That's actually a good rant I like to point this kind of things to people who insult practices that aren't like theirs. It's so frustrating to see that you'd have to tell this to a whole bunch of people. Even though I called CoE savages some posts higher, I like to think that they aren't just "WAAAGH" and "BUUURN" and all. They are, to me, a quite interesting culture; certainly a bit violent and harsh (for me at least) but not less complicated than, say, the Elohim.

I think the same thing about the Ngomele. They are cannibals; even though they're less in the Age of Rebirth since they can prey on cattle but they still commonly eat their deads. While they are, it doesn't make them evil or barbarians. Quite the opposite: they have developped a complicated society gravitating towards their deads, the nature and their entertainers. At the dawn of the AoR, they were "barbarians" though: they weren't united and were continually waring each others. When Mvadang & Vungu stepped in, they united the gnolls of the isthmus and got them out of "barbarism". I think this backstory represents what you want about FiRe: peoples without a leader, kind of lost into harsh lands and then appears the mind that units them: BarbarianCiv is popping!

 

[arkham4269]

I think the same thing about the Ngomele. They are cannibals; even though they're less in the Age of Rebirth since they can prey on cattle but they still commonly eat their deads. While they are, it doesn't make them evil or barbarians.

I'm sorry that I haven't read all the back story on the Ngolome but I would think that often times when people/cultures do things out of necessity, they often come up with ways to justify it. Sort of the 'sour grapes' them of "I didn't really want those grapes after all" or "I'm not poor; I've cast off material ways."

Now, I'm not saying the Ngolome feel 'bad' about eating their dead; it may be just one of the things they do and don't understand what all the fuss is about. However, another way to think of it is would be for them to ritualized the process. In eating their own dead, they are 'recovering' the life energy of their own so it is not lost to entropy and chaos. Sort of like how the Vulcans in Star Trek try to recover the 'katra' of those before they die so it isn't just lost. Another idea is that they weren't always like this but the Age of Winter forced it upon them. Thus to make it a bit more (ahem) palatable, they ritualized the process and now keep at it even when not needed because it's part of their culture. A good fictional example of this can be seen in Larry Niven's Lucifer's Hammer where a charismatic leader 'bonds' his people together through cannibalism since after doing it, most people feel unclean and don't bother to run away since now they are tainted so better to stay with the group.

In regard to eating their enemies, it wouldn't be cannibalism but still probably quite frowned upon to say the least. Here I would think they would rationalize it as did many historical cannibal cultures in that you are 'eating your opponents' strength. Stealing their afterlife energy as it were not to mention sort of pissing on their grave in a way if that culture has specific funerary rites related to the the burial of a body.

 

[arkham4269]

When Mvadang & Vungu stepped in, they united the gnolls of the isthmus and got them out of "barbarism". I think this backstory represents what you want about FiRe: peoples without a leader, kind of lost into harsh lands and then appears the mind that units them: BarbarianCiv is popping!

Well that's what I see being the difference between savages, barbarians, minor civs and the active civs.

Savages: The wandering units that appear. No better than 'smart' animals in a way.
Barbarians: Pockets of people who have survived the Age of Ice but only in that "Mad Max" regressed sort of way. Mostly a despotic and primitive existence.
Minor Civs: Cultures that arise from barbarism. Yet lacking a unifying theme, ideal or charismatic leader. Usually just want to be left alone.
Active Civ: Obviously a civ that has the dynamism to expand and grow and not content just to live quietly in their own borders.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be cool to have a barbarian unit that is like the old Warlord Mongol unit that has a chance to randomly spawn a unit every turn and that unit would depend on the terrain tile it is in on that turn. That way you could have 'barbarian' migrations so typical in 'real' history. I mean people tend to forget the Celts originated in the East and ended up in the western part of Europe simply because there wasn't anywhere else to retreat to! I think that would be an interesting event, "The coming of the horde!" with a bunch of mounted barbarians, some of these 'mobile camps' and some infantry.

 

[Opera]

I'm sorry that I haven't read all the back story on the Ngolome but I would think that often times when people/cultures do things out of necessity, they often come up with ways to justify it. Sort of the 'sour grapes' them of "I didn't really want those grapes after all" or "I'm not poor; I've cast off material ways."

Now, I'm not saying the Ngolome feel 'bad' about eating their dead; it may be just one of the things they do and don't understand what all the fuss is about. However, another way to think of it is would be for them to ritualized the process. In eating their own dead, they are 'recovering' the life energy of their own so it is not lost to entropy and chaos. Sort of like how the Vulcans in Star Trek try to recover the 'katra' of those before they die so it isn't just lost. Another idea is that they weren't always like this but the Age of Winter forced it upon them. Thus to make it a bit more (ahem) palatable, they ritualized the process and now keep at it even when not needed because it's part of their culture. A good fictional example of this can be seen in Larry Niven's Lucifer's Hammer where a charismatic leader 'bonds' his people together through cannibalism since after doing it, most people feel unclean and don't bother to run away since now they are tainted so better to stay with the group.

In regard to eating their enemies, it wouldn't be cannibalism but still probably quite frowned upon to say the least. Here I would think they would rationalize it as did many historical cannibal cultures in that you are 'eating your opponents' strength. Stealing their afterlife energy as it were not to mention sort of pissing on their grave in a way if that culture has specific funerary rites related to the the burial of a body.

They did in fact have to cannibalize during the Age of Winter. They greatly suffered from the snow times and as such they turned to themselves. They didn't stop waging war with the other tribes during the AoW because they used the dead bodies to survive. They didn't killed each other in the same tribe; it happened but was marginal and punished. When the AoW ended, eight tribes were left and preys began to reappear. Some tribes keeped their cannibalistic rites in a way or another and some didn't. This is partly the reason why the Mvadu and the Wugan tribes weren't unified: they refused because they decided to entirely drop their cannibalistic ways (but for very special occasions like the execution of Wiri Big-Heart). The five tribes composing the Ngomele are cannibals. Although, as you said, they have reasons to be so. To remain so, especially. Well before the Green Sea was followed (another thing that is not shared with the Mvadu and the Wugan), the Ngomele considered it an honor to eat the deads, especially the very important ones. They weren't thinking of power or energy but more of honor and "recorporation", as if the dead guy (though usually it was a chick) then flowed into everyone else. When the Green Sea spread (mostly thanks to the Zimge tribe), the thought that eating the deads, which belongs both to the nature and to the Ngomele, tied themselves more and more to the Sea. However, they don't eat everything on a body and they bury it in the deadgnolls copse. In it they grow mushrooms used for hallucinations and cooking (one of the non-meat thing they eat).

 

[Opera]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it would be cool to have a barbarian unit that is like the old Warlord Mongol unit that has a chance to randomly spawn a unit every turn and that unit would depend on the terrain tile it is in on that turn. That way you could have 'barbarian' migrations so typical in 'real' history. I mean people tend to forget the Celts originated in the East and ended up in the western part of Europe simply because there wasn't anywhere else to retreat to! I think that would be an interesting event, "The coming of the horde!" with a bunch of mounted barbarians, some of these 'mobile camps' and some infantry.

Well, you can always try to implement it. I don't know at all how it's done... although I can think of ways to do it. I should try this mod

 

[Opera]

I think I've a bit of a problem here...

As you may know, I thought of making the Ngomele unable to build any improvement. Instead, they'd use buildings to add yields to the surrounding tiles of their cities. Some examples I thought of:

Ranch:

+1 on plains
+1 on plains​

Granary:

+1 on grasslands​

River Port:

+1 on river tiles
+1 on river tiles​

Hunters Sorority:

+1 on every tile that hasn't already 3 or more​

Unless otherwise stated, those modifications won't apply to either: city plot, tundra, snow, desert, sea plot or peak.

Theoretically, a flat plain without river could go up to 3 2 and with river to 4 2 2 (the Ngomele benefiting from +1 on plains no matter what).

However, there is two (at least) serious issues:

1) What if the terrain changes? The yields won't (the extra yields would be applicated to the nature yields anyway) but then maybe some of those yields wouldn't have to be there. If this flat riverside plain tile of above did go to grassland, 2 and 1 from the extra yields and gain 1 and lose 1 from the nature yields changing; bringing it to 3 2. The technical side of the issue is that the extra yields are done at the creation of the building, once and for all (unless destruction of the city). It would certainly be painful to check every tile every turn... So I don't know what to do.

2) How to handle resources? If they can't build improvements, that means they can't grab resources, which is certainly wrong. Moreover, they would lose some pretty benefits from improvements on resources. So, I thought of two workarounds:
2a) Using special spells for the Worker unit that enable it to build improvements on top of resources.
2b) Using a ritual (in this case more a project): the Resources Handling Expedition. When finished, it would create needed improvements on top of resources in the big fat cross of the city.
Consequent issue of using improvements on resources: HUGE yields. Just adds the benefits of Horse+pasture on the flat riverside plain tile above...

I'm afraid about having to cut this feature out. I'd like to keep it but it seems to be a PITA to make it work correctly. The main obstacle is that I can't just do checks all the time. Even if it'd just checks around cities, it'd likely lengthen the time between turns. But it could be done with checks: for 1), checking each turn and applying good extra yields depending on the city infrastructure; for 2), adding a bit of code in the spell function (or the project's) to check what is the city's infrastructure and then redo the extra yields of the plot according to it.

You know what? Third issue showing its ugly face: how about overlapping BFC? If the two cities haven't the same infrastructure, the yields would be changed...

Huh, this is not good...

 

[arkham4269]

1) What if the terrain changes?

I would think Hell terrain would pretty much destroy this culture or at least push them to serious cannibalism.

Actually it's too bad no one knows how to make that Mongol camp unit work since in some sense the Ngolome would seem to either be like the Kuriotates in having a few cities and the rest nomadic units based on clan lines, or they would be like the Jotnar in having lots of little 1 tile square cities & limited in size. I mean the biggest problem traditionally for carnivores is it takes more 'space' to feed them. I mean the same area (making up numbers here) that might support 100 herbivores will only support 10 carnivores. Which is historically why omnivores tend to be animals on top of the food chain like bears and humans since they can 'cheat' and do both.

Anyway, unless the Ngolome do some serious herding and utilize plants that way, they are pretty much on the short end of the stick food wise.

Plus, there are only so many people of other races you can eat before everyone on Erebus decides that it would be better that the Ngolome weren't around. At least the Calabim can offer some of their potential 'meals' a chance at the immortality of the vampire's gift. About the best you can hope from the Ngolome is to give the one that ate you heart burn.

 

[BenjaminEmbarec]

I actually had a little bit of an idea for these guys, although I'm not sure how, if at all, ballanced it would be. Taking their carnivorous nature to the extreme, flavor-wise they'd have a modification of the Jotnar cities. Small populations, say... fifteen in capital and ten in non-capital cities, but ALL of them would be able to work the third ring. Flavor wise this makes sense, hunters would have to roam farther to make sure they find food [Hence the 3 tile radius instead of 2], and although their crosses would intersect [it would be pointless not to since they CAN'T work all the tiles] they wouldn't be able to hunt the same area as a different hunting party. The reason I'm saying ten and fifteen is that I was thinking that, as warm-blooded mammalian styled carnivores, the amount of energy they expend would mean they would need to eat more... Is it possible to block them from Sacrifice the Weak, and make it so that they require more food per citizen? That way it should, theoretically, also ballance out... Sure they have more AVAILABLE tiles, but each tile "Counts" as less as well, meaning that even if they DO get a few "Super tiles" then what's the harm? Comparatively, their "super tiles" will be as useful for them [so long as it's only the food that's boosted alot...] as normally maximized tiles for others. And you gotta remember.. if they can't use improvements, improvment-boosting techs are useless, improvement-boosting civics are useles... Personally, I don't see why you don't just give them a "Gathering camp" unique improvement [If possible..] that doesn't increase tile yields but supplies any resource underneath it. They'll only have one improvement, true, but if you also made it expensive to create.. Slow build time and decent gold cost... It SHOULD be ballanced?

 

[Opera]

Ok, thank you, both of you. Thanks to your input (and, really, both) I think I have something to resolve my issues. I won't tell exactly how (need to keep some secrets ) but you helped me greatly!

Just to reassure Ahwaric: I won't use new improvements. I just found out that I can write a bit of python to ensure that a Ngomele Worker won't be able to build improvements unless on top of resources. I just need to create the function (maybe inspiring from the breeding thing or a spell that is only triggered on top of resources).

Anyway, I just wrote a To-Do list for the Ngomele. It's a bit huge but at least I know (mostly) where I'm going now. There is still many things to work (unit lines, Shur spells) but it's near

 

[Ahwaric]

I will test to see if this happens again. I tried to enable the display of buildingclass_civ_building1 in the civilization screen in the pedia but I failed

It will probably show in the 'replaced by' list if you add a default building in buildingclassinfos. Right now for civbuildings it is NONE, so it does not show.

So, I can make any unit that have OO as religion (state religion is irrelevant here) automatically gain a promotion? I would like to do that for RoK too but plus there will be a high level promotion.

Only in python. XML only allows checking for state religion.

Okay then. I attached the current editor I use. However, it misses the art defines for the leaders and buildings; it also misses the building class infos and the unit class infos. But since I think you won't need them right now, it's fine, right?

No, I just wanted to see what are the shema changes you need so I can prepaer it for you to save some visual basic problems. Plus check where you might have problems with editor. I need to check it more next time, only some space in civinfos is there for you. The files that are not in editor are used less, so I hope it will not need to be updated that often. It might be usefull to have them in editor, but I was not determined to add them yet.
Anyway, you will have hard time updating...

Off topic note: as I'm working on a few projects at the same time (I'm of the spreading kind, can't focus on a single thing) all concerning Orbis (thus not counting non-Civ related projects ), I'm having a bit of trouble to separate them all in the editor.

Don't you worry with that. I am quite well trained in looking for the code I need. Doing it for quite some time already
Just color code the fields in editor. I removed most of my coding (except added fields in green) so you can choos any colour you want

Even though I called CoE savages some posts higher, I like to think that they aren't just "WAAAGH" and "BUUURN" and all. They are, to me, a quite interesting culture; certainly a bit violent and harsh (for me at least) but not less complicated than, say, the Elohim.

I am not sure about Elohim, but certainly Bannor are no more complicated and are considered 'civilized'. But 'barbarian' started as a greek term for all non-greeks, so that included babylonians, persians and egyptians
Funny you mention WAAGH! Form wiki, on Warhammer Orcs:
"Ork behavior is dominated by the Waaagh!, a gestalt psychic field they generate that affects the Ork psyche, as it allows Orks to instinctively recognize who is 'bigga' and therefore in charge. All Orks generate this field, and it grows stronger as the Orks enjoy themselves, generally while fighting. The Waaagh! helps give momentum (and the name) to the Orks' planet-crushing Waaagh!s. These Waaagh!s are a cross between a mass migration, holy war, looting party and pub crawl, with a bit of genocide thrown in for good measure."
Also, the waaagh! is used by orc shamans to do magic

Ok, thank you, both of you. Thanks to your input (and, really, both) I think I have something to resolve my issues. I won't tell exactly how (need to keep some secrets ) but you helped me greatly!

Just to reassure Ahwaric: I won't use new improvements. I just found out that I can write a bit of python to ensure that a Ngomele Worker won't be able to build improvements unless on top of resources.

I wonder what that is
I am not sure if your idea can be implemented well without dll changes to make it work as extra yields from sea (i.e. lighthouse). It is certainly unique and interesting, but hard to balance and even harder to code. In general, it is best if all this is handled by the city, so the tiles themselves are not touched. There are plenty of tile changes in FfH (hell terrain, ice, terraforming spells), so it might be quite complicated to make it work.
I would probably allow them to build pastures or camps without bonus (doable in python). You can just add some special yields for specific improvements. Now that I think of it, a unique improvement does not seem that bad. Python per turn slows turns and I already do not feel well using it for forts and deep jungle.
Anyway, that is your civ, so you need to decide what you think is best. I am just glad it is not my role

Now some plus sides. First, how do you like the gnoll racial icon (attached below). Second, council tree is in the orbis art pak file for patch 0.22d and in art defines for buildings (on top) so you just need to link the building to it. It might use some enlargement though, as it is a wonder.
I am working on gauri buildings, some of them seem to be broken and that was the reason for your problems.