NiGHTS: Technologies

[Canabrava]

I think techs aren't cool. I was playing on emperor level and on 1200 AD one civ has musktman and on 1500 AD this civ had Rifleman. This same civ was plawing with musketman and spearman. A lot of another civs just with spearman.

It's nice have diferents routes tech, but some units are avaible too early.

 

[markusbeutel]

I think techs aren't cool. I was playing on emperor level and on 1200 AD one civ has musktman and on 1500 AD this civ had Rifleman. This same civ was plawing with musketman and spearman. A lot of another civs just with spearman.

It's nice have diferents routes tech, but some units are avaible too early.

Was this in v10.6? The Magellan's Expedition wonder from previous versions was over-powered and resulted in whichever Civ built it getting a large tech lead. Having said that, Musketmen appearing in the 1200-1300's is fairly accurate, (as the first hand cannon's I think they were called), appeared in the 13th century, and these were essentially the early precursors for Muskets. Around 1500 is also when the first experimental rifling took place.

Granted, the Musketmen and Riflemen in the game utilize the advanced form of muskets/rifles, but on higher difficulty levels, I'm not all that concerned if these units start appearing around the times that they did in your game, (although again, this might be due to Magellan's Expedition).

What's more troubling is that Spearmen aren't being upgraded quickly enough, and the rate at which the AI upgrades it's units is something that I'll continually try and tweak to make sure immersion-breaking situations like this don't happen as often.

 

[Canabrava]

I played 3 games with 10.6.

I saw that now is just rush to musket. Just it, no one unit is important before this. For me, it's too boring. I see AI using: Worrior + Archer + Catapult and after, musketman. On 3 games, I NEVER SEEN A PIKEMAN!!! I saw a few trebaucht (after catapult, i don't know the rigth word ). Longsowrd have some, but a few too.

I think the mod is going too fast from Worrior/Archer/Catapult to musket and cannon.

 

[V. Soma]

Markus, you know i constatntly play on tiny map, quick speed.

In all of my games, tech advancement gets too slow somewhere after the middle ages...
I cannot say for sure, but things in Renaissance/Industrial should be quickened, perhaps...

 

[markusbeutel]

Markus, you know i constatntly play on tiny map, quick speed.

In all of my games, tech advancement gets too slow somewhere after the middle ages...
I cannot say for sure, but things in Renaissance/Industrial should be quickened, perhaps...

How much of a boost would you say is needed? I don't think many people play tiny/quick, so I'll set the amount you think is right in v10.7, as you're probably one of the most experienced with these particular game settings.

 

[V. Soma]

How much of a boost would you say is needed? I don't think many people play tiny/quick, so I'll set the amount you think is right in v10.7, as you're probably one of the most experienced with these particular game settings.

Thanks!
Hard to say, as there should be be long enought ime left to use the units that come with the techs...
Saying that, I would say let's try to lessen the costs of Renaissance and Industrial techs
(maybe not all of them, I leave that to you) by 10%...?

 

[Deon]

I really enjoy the expanded tech tree and policies with all the new features, it's a definite upgrade from the vanilla. I would love to see you eventually revising tech tree from both gameplay AND realism sides. As it has been told, things like satellites without rocketry and flight without combustion look really out of place.

Thank you for your great work.

 

[Deon]

Yep, I've looked into it more, and the combustion placement totally bugs me. Come on, AT THE SAME TIME as nuclear power plants? Hell no.

You could just remove the combustion alltogether (as a tech, consider it happen naturally at the time of the end of railroad/industrialism research, this way the flight and nuclear power placement is a bit more believable); and replace the current combustion tech with something which makes more sense at the time (people, suggestions!).

P.S. Actually placing plastics where the combustion is right now makes sense (and plastics leading to composites).

P.P.S. Considering the satellites placement: I would honestly consider placing robotics where the satellites are now (so electronics/radar would lead to it) and placing advanced flight where the robotics are now (with robotics OR composites leading to it), and placing satellites where the advanced flight is right now, so it would require rocketry.


Please consider it, I beg you .

 

[markusbeutel]

Yep, I've looked into it more, and the combustion placement totally bugs me. Come on, AT THE SAME TIME as nuclear power plants? Hell no.

You could just remove the combustion alltogether (as a tech, consider it happen naturally at the time of the end of railroad/industrialism research, this way the flight and nuclear power placement is a bit more believable); and replace the current combustion tech with something which makes more sense at the time (people, suggestions!).

P.S. Actually placing plastics where the combustion is right now makes sense (and plastics leading to composites).

P.P.S. Considering the satellites placement: I would honestly consider placing robotics where the satellites are now (so electronics/radar would lead to it) and placing advanced flight where the robotics are now (with robotics OR composites leading to it), and placing satellites where the advanced flight is right now, so it would require rocketry.


Please consider it, I beg you .

The tech tree is more or less a constantly evolving component of the mod. In many of these situations simply renaming the techs while keeping the buildings/units they unlock can potentially solve any realism problems, and it's something that I'll continue to look at.

As for certain techs being unlocked too early / too late on the tree, in many cases, although the techs appear on the tree at the same point, it takes more prerequisite techs to actually discover the more advanced tech. This isn't the case with Atomic Theory and Combustion, but considering you need a Factory, (which requires 4 Coal and Workshop), and an improved source of Uranium before you can build Nuclear Plants, (and what with Nuclear Plants costing roughly 2X the amount of hammers that the tanks/anti-tanks unlocked by Combustion cost), they usually start appearing a good 20-50 years after you research Combustion, which isn't entirely inaccurate considering Combustion was discovered in the late 1700's, and Atomic Theory started making headway in the early 1800's.

So in addition to tech prereqs, the actual cost of what's being unlocked also comes into play. If certain techs are out of whack regarding realism, it's purely been done based on game-play merits. Unlike in vanilla CIV V, I've tried to space out military units, so that regardless of the path an AI takes, they'll be able to produce at least some up-to-date units. If I went purely from a realistic standpoint, you'd more or less have no divergent paths at all, as everything would be connected in some shape or form. Having said that, I might switch Robotics and Satellites - but these 2 need to be a prereq for each other, because if they aren't, the AI fails to complete both in a sensible amount of time, (which leads to them never attempting a Space Victory).

I'll see what I can come up in v10.9 - thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Chile]

I've said it before: especially the (technological) distance between longsword man - musket man, as well es Knight - Lancer is too small/short, which makes the medieval age disappear weapon-wise. Since in most games the ai has a technological advantage over me, i'm always facing musket men with my longswords, even if this particular nation is fairly small. They always pull some lancers out of their hat (around 1300-1400), hacking my expansively upgraded Longswords to pieces.
It is hardly logical that Musket men/ Lancers appear directly with the next tech. following their predecessors.
Also, the path to certain technologies should be broaden, so that for example gun powder rushes by the ai could be curbed.

I'm sorry to repeat my self. While this is a great mod this issue bugs me a lot.

Greetings.

 

[markusbeutel]

I've said it before: especially the (technological) distance between longsword man - musket man, as well es Knight - Lancer is too small/short, which makes the medieval age disappear weapon-wise. Since in most games the ai has a technological advantage over me, i'm always facing musket men with my longswords, even if this particular nation is fairly small. They always pull some lancers out of their hat (around 1300-1400), hacking my expansively upgraded Longswords to pieces.
It is hardly logical that Musket men/ Lancers appear directly with the next tech. following their predecessors.
Also, the path to certain technologies should be broaden, so that for example gun powder rushes by the ai could be curbed.

I'm sorry to repeat my self. While this is a great mod this issue bugs me a lot.

Greetings.

Techs are slowly being added through updates - but I don't want to go too overboard here just for contents sake. I will say that the main reason the AI beelines military techs is that they pretty much have to in order to stay competitive. If the tactical AI was in better shape, I'd be more comfortable with having longer breaks between new units appearing.

For now, I prefer the AI to field updated armies and push the pace when possible, as opposed to lagging or falling behind - as there's nothing worse than YOU having musketmen while the AI still has Longswordsmen or worse - which is what would happen if I broaden the tech tree any more.

 

[Chile]

Techs are slowly being added through updates - but I don't want to go too overboard here just for contents sake. I will say that the main reason the AI beelines military techs is that they pretty much have to in order to stay competitive. If the tactical AI was in better shape, I'd be more comfortable with having longer breaks between new units appearing.

For now, I prefer the AI to field updated armies and push the pace when possible, as opposed to lagging or falling behind - as there's nothing worse than YOU having musketmen while the AI still has Longswordsmen or worse - which is what would happen if I broaden the tech tree any more.

Well all right... I'm good with this answer for now...

 

[Deon]

Techs are slowly being added through updates - but I don't want to go too overboard here just for contents sake. I will say that the main reason the AI beelines military techs is that they pretty much have to in order to stay competitive. If the tactical AI was in better shape, I'd be more comfortable with having longer breaks between new units appearing.

For now, I prefer the AI to field updated armies and push the pace when possible, as opposed to lagging or falling behind - as there's nothing worse than YOU having musketmen while the AI still has Longswordsmen or worse - which is what would happen if I broaden the tech tree any more.

It wouldn't happen if there were appropriate units in between. The jump is too quick, I agree.

 

[gazius]

Have you considered adding any benefits to the future tech? Maybe for every 20 citizens in a city, each city generates one additional gold, culture, science, food? Or something else, small, but rewarding to continue the benefits of research instead of just adding to the victory score?

 

[markusbeutel]

Have you considered adding any benefits to the future tech? Maybe for every 20 citizens in a city, each city generates one additional gold, culture, science, food? Or something else, small, but rewarding to continue the benefits of research instead of just adding to the victory score?

The first few small changes to the modern/future era will appear in v11. This section of the tech tree will continue to be expanded over the coming months - which means I'll have to tweak victory conditions and tech speeds a little bit so that these parts of the tree actually get played out in games.

 

[VidiVidiVidi]

I've played only a couple of games of NiGHTS and a couple of games of VEM since I got Civ5 a few days ago. I noticed in NiGHTS that I'd often leave a couple of techs behind in the tech tree. Usually this was Bronze Working/Metal Casting or Sailing/Compass when I didn't need them.

The problem was I would get to a point in the tech tree where I'd be in the modern ages but would still have this annoying "Metal Casting/1 turn" still stuck among my tech tree options.

I remember in Civ4 that there was a mechanic which prevented this kind of thing from happening. After a certain point you'd get the techs you'd neglected for thousands of years just so you could move on with the game. I think it was related to other civs having the tech in question and the player without the tech to be multiple ages beyond the tech. (On reaching the Renaissance Age you'd get all the old ancient tech options you'd ignored.)

Is implementing something like this possible? It's not necessary at all, but I don't want to risk losing the space race just because I decided to learn how to ride a horse for one turn.


* -- I've played a lot of Civ3 & Civ4 but I've never researched the "optimal" way to play, I just play like I want to and so if I wanted to play better I probably should learn how to chop down marshes.

 

[markusbeutel]

I've updated the tech-tree with a wide-angle panoramic shot in the first post of this thread. Sorry it's taken me so long to get one of these up.