NiGHTS: Technologies

[markusbeutel]

Updated Tech Tree for v11.1 (and the hotfix)

The Tech Tree's gone through quite a few revisions lately, and I know some people aren't able to display the resolution required for CivNights, so here's an updated wide view of the tree. I'll make sure to keep this one updated...

For anyone new to the mod, the science icons in front of certain techs designate either/or prerequisites.

 

[Putmalk]

Would you like to use my Ancient Mesopotamia tech atlas to put custom icons for your ancient era technologies?

Also, to clean up tech pipes, may I suggest that when you have technologies like:

            |-------- Tech 2 ---------|
Tech 1 -----|-------------------------|------ Tech 3

That you simply remove the link from Tech 1 to Tech 3, since it's the same reqs and removes a useless bar.

I like this tech tree, and I applaud your ambitious mod.

 

[markusbeutel]

Would you like to use my Ancient Mesopotamia tech atlas to put custom icons for your ancient era technologies?

Also, to clean up tech pipes, may I suggest that when you have technologies like:

            |-------- Tech 2 ---------|
Tech 1 -----|-------------------------|------ Tech 3

That you simply remove the link from Tech 1 to Tech 3, since it's the same reqs and removes a useless bar.

I like this tech tree, and I applaud your ambitious mod.

Those look nice Putmalk - but I'll have to refer them to OrsonM as he's already working on custom icons behind the scenes. As for the Tech pipe connections, in some cases I've actually included the useless connector bars - purely because I find they look better aesthetically in some spots, (and they make it easier for players to look at a series of connections and instantly know what unlocks what).

But having said that, (and after looking over them again), there are certainly a few cases where I'll be removing some connectors. Thanks for mentioning that - I'm not not used to people commenting on tech pipes. Leave that for fellow modders to bring up.

Good luck with your Ancient Mesopotamia modpack.

Oh, and you've probably noticed by now, but the ModBrowser doesn't exactly play nice with mods. As it turns out, there seems to be a limit of around 5.5-6mb, and if a mod is larger than that it won't upload. This is why my mod lacks some of the custom icons that it had previously, as I had to delete/merge art assets just to get it to upload.

 

[Putmalk]

Those look nice Putmalk - but I'll have to refer them to OrsonM as he's already working on custom icons behind the scenes. As for the Tech pipe connections, in some cases I've actually included the useless connector bars - purely because I find they look better aesthetically in some spots, (and they make it easier for players to look at a series of connections and instantly know what unlocks what).

But having said that, (and after looking over them again), there are certainly a few cases where I'll be removing some connectors. Thanks for mentioning that - I'm not not used to people commenting on tech pipes. Leave that for fellow modders to bring up.

Good luck with your Ancient Mesopotamia modpack.

Oh, and you've probably noticed by now, but the ModBrowser doesn't exactly play nice with mods. As it turns out, there seems to be a limit of around 5.5-6mb, and if a mod is larger than that it won't upload. This is why my mod lacks some of the custom icons that it had previously, as I had to delete/merge art assets just to get it to upload.

Thanks a lot. My Beta is out - I found megaupload to the job for me. If you want you can check it out in the preview thread Original Post or the scenario thread I just created.

I won't be using ModBuddy for big mods ever again - it's pretty crappy if you ask me.

 

[V. Soma]

Playing v9.8 on Quick speed:

I feel that techs are a bit too expensive (perhaps form Middle Age on?),
as in the years of the 1930s I have the tech lead by 5 techs ahead
of the otherwise strong English AI,
but yet I am still in the middle of Industrial age, just got Artillery (and have Infantry)...

 

[markusbeutel]

Playing v9.8 on Quick speed:

I feel that techs are a bit too expensive (perhaps form Middle Age on?),
as in the years of the 1930s I have the tech lead by 5 techs ahead
of the otherwise strong English AI,
but yet I am still in the middle of Industrial age, just got Artillery (and have Infantry)...

That's not too far off from where things should be. Do you have Libraries/Universities in most of your Cities? What about Rationalism and some of the more Science-centric policies? I've slowed teching/build times by around 10-15% as I found they weren't scaled quite right compared to Standard/Epic in 9.9 - so I'll be curious to hear how your games play out now with these changes.

 

[Willowmound]

I was perusing the overview thread and very much liking the look of this mod but this tech tree disappointed me. From a historical (immersion) point of view, there are several things off here.

Archeology. To make this a medieval tech is just strange. I know there was an Italian in the 15th century who wrote a book and has been called the "father of archeology", but as a science archeology did not come about until the 19th century.

Also drama. The Greeks had drama (classical) but then there really wasn't any until the renaissance. So either one has to make it a classical tech or a renaissance tech. To make it a medieval tech makes no sense at all.

And while I'm talking about the renaissance, I really think banking should come at the beginning of the era, not the end. Banking has its origin in early 15th century Italy.

Coming to the industrial era, I notice you've kept vanilla Civ's flight without combustion. That's a disappointment too. A steam powered heavier-than-air aircraft would be impossible, however cool it might sound.

And plastics as an industrial era tech? And revealing oil to boot? Plastics are made from oil. And while the first plastic apparently was made in the 1860s, proper plastic -- the kind that turned out so sturdy, moldable and cheap that we've filled the world with it, didn't come about until the 20th century (i.e. modern era).

Also: satellites without rocketry. Really?

And mass production. It's coming way too late. It's the last modern tech. Wasn't it Henry Ford who made modern mass production work...in about 1912?

All these things are really jarring, and it's a real shame because from a gameplay point of view the mod looks interesting.

 

[markusbeutel]

I was perusing the overview thread and very much liking the look of this mod but this tech tree disappointed me. From a historical (immersion) point of view, there are several things off here.

Archeology. To make this a medieval tech is just strange. I know there was an Italian in the 15th century who wrote a book and has been called the "father of archeology", but as a science archeology did not come about until the 19th century.

Also drama. The Greeks had drama (classical) but then there really wasn't any until the renaissance. So either one has to make it a classical tech or a renaissance tech. To make it a medieval tech makes no sense at all.

And while I'm talking about the renaissance, I really think banking should come at the beginning of the era, not the end. Banking has its origin in early 15th century Italy.

Coming to the industrial era, I notice you've kept vanilla Civ's flight without combustion. That's a disappointment too. A steam powered heavier-than-air aircraft would be impossible, however cool it might sound.

And plastics as an industrial era tech? And revealing oil to boot? Plastics are made from oil. And while the first plastic apparently was made in the 1860s, proper plastic -- the kind that turned out so sturdy, moldable and cheap that we've filled the world with it, didn't come about until the 20th century (i.e. modern era).

Also: satellites without rocketry. Really?

And mass production. It's coming way too late. It's the last modern tech. Wasn't it Henry Ford who made modern mass production work...in about 1912?

All these things are really jarring, and it's a real shame because from a gameplay point of view the mod looks interesting.

Thanks for the input Willowmound - by no means is the tech tree perfect in regards to realism. But from a gameplay perspective, certain techs, (especially military techs), just can't be on the same path.

As far as realism goes - while I've attempted to have techs in sensible spots - I've put more of an emphasis on having military units appear at the approprite times. Having tanks show up in 800AD isn't going to happen in NiGHTS - and this sort of realism is more or less whats influenced the current overall design of the Tech Tree.

 

[Willowmound]

You could always rename techs to something that fits better with their placement. I'd be happy to make suggestions if you're interested.

 

[markusbeutel]

You could always rename techs to something that fits better with their placement. I'd be happy to make suggestions if you're interested.

I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Willowmound]

Hm. On closer inspection, simple renaming might not be that good a solution. Because whatever you rename drama to, it still makes theatres available. So you'd have to rename theatres. And then you might have to find a new graphic for it. Etc.

Not so simple.

 

[maceman121]

Couple notes here...
As mentioned earlier, if it isn't hard, be real nice to have the techs cleaned up slightly with the extra _____ connections than needed (if, for example, pottery leads to calendar which is required for writing, no need for pottery to link to writing).
Others are just typos I think and as I look it over, I think you just never did update them from vanilla desc, so won't post here unless you would like me to.

 

[Gorhaax]

Couple notes here...
As mentioned earlier, if it isn't hard, be real nice to have the techs cleaned up slightly with the extra _____ connections than needed (if, for example, pottery leads to calendar which is required for writing, no need for pottery to link to writing).
Others are just typos I think and as I look it over, I think you just never did update them from vanilla desc, so won't post here unless you would like me to.

Also, teching from Aesthetics to Drama look like it would work because of the symbol, but in actuality you only need Engineering or Theology.

 

[markusbeutel]

Also, teching from Aesthetics to Drama look like it would work because of the symbol, but in actuality you only need Engineering or Theology.

I'll clean up some of these loose ends for v10.3. Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[hammurabi88]

Just to add to Willowmound's points. Why does the classical tech "Republic"(?) give you Caravels and Magellan's Expedition? Both of these are from the 1400's...

 

[markusbeutel]

Just to add to Willowmound's points. Why does the classical tech "Republic"(?) give you Caravels and Magellan's Expedition? Both of these are from the 1400's...

The problem with moving Caravels to later eras so that they first appear around the 1400's - is that 50% of games won't get to Caravels. The Caravel is placed more for gameplay than realism at the moment, as seeing nothing but Triremes for 200+ turns probably wouldn't be all that enjoyable. A possible route to take would be to add extra ships to the earlier eras, but I've held back on this due to the lack of additional unit graphics, (and I don't want to double up graphics for current units).

Magellan's Expedition is more of a recent addition to the mod - and it could easily just be renamed something else. In both of these situations, (Caravels/Expedition) - with how the Tech Tree has more branching paths/options at the moment compared to Vanilla CIV V, you probably won't see either of them until around the late Classical/Medieval Era anyways unless you beeline straight for them, (which most people don't).

Like I said to Willowmound - I'm open to different naming conventions for both the Caravel and the Expedition.

 

[black213]

Markus, don't you think that being able to build the Stonehenge from turn 0 with Mysticism as a free starting tech is somewhat unbalanced? I'd like if it was moved to the second row of the tech tree, so more civs could try and build it.

 

[markusbeutel]

Markus, don't you think that being able to build the Stonehenge from turn 0 with Mysticism as a free starting tech is somewhat unbalanced? I'd like if it was moved to the second row of the tech tree, so more civs could try and build it.

I have thought about that, but the trade-off at the moment is that Mining and Fishing allow immediate potential Happiness improvements, while Agriculture allows for Food improvements. I'd lean more towards moving it from Mysticism if there weren't already so many additional Wonders in the game. While Stonehenge is very powerful, building it generally offputs a second City and/or any of the other ancient era wonders.

Having said all that, Wonders will be shifting around a little bit in v10.5, and at least 1 new Wonder will be added to the Ancient Era, (probably the Statue of Zeus), along with 2-3 others spread out across the Classical/Medieval/Renaissance eras.

 

[maceman121]

I am a huge wonder hog, most of my games I build them as often and as quick as possible, but truth is, even as one of the groups starting with Mysticism, I don't normally build Stonehenge until having finished another science simply because there is too much to do in the city (build another scout at least, and sometimes a second scout or warrior). Plus, unless you have the perfect start, you need a few pop to make it take less than forever with only a couple hammers.

 

[markusbeutel]

I am a huge wonder hog, most of my games I build them as often and as quick as possible, but truth is, even as one of the groups starting with Mysticism, I don't normally build Stonehenge until having finished another science simply because there is too much to do in the city (build another scout at least, and sometimes a second scout or warrior). Plus, unless you have the perfect start, you need a few pop to make it take less than forever with only a couple hammers.

This is kind of my play-style as well. If I do go for Stonehenge, it's usually only if I get a starting plains/hill start for the immediate +1 hammer production plus Tradition.