ecuwins
Emperor
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Yes, the file sizes are huge compared to the dimensions. OP should use .jpg instead of .png, but that's up to him/her.
No-Cottage Gandhi (Immortal Espionage Economy)
- Thread starter OneLeggedRhino
- Start date
OneLeggedRhino
King
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- Aug 12, 2011
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Cool, I've been wondering what's up. I'll swap them for future posts. Thanks!
OneLeggedRhino
King
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Catching Up in Cities, Part 2
Second half of the turnset. I'd already taken all the screencaps, so the images are still PNG. Next set will be JPG though.
1830 BC: Mao founds Judaism. We have 3 religions on the continent. Should be good for wars.
Also, notice Mao filling in near Gems. Glad I have the backfill.
4 turns later, Judaism spreads to Gems. Mao is the only jew, so I hold off on religion for now. But the +1 culture will get me the second gems tile, which is great.
1760 BC: Fishing completes, start on Pottery.
1710 BC: Great Spy born. Time to specialize cities.
Delhi will be a production monster, so I'll want to work tiles, not spies. But Cow (City #2) has corn, cow and iron, and a ton of flatland. It's also a great city, but more food and less production. It will be my main spy city. The first GSpy settles in Cow, and the second will build Scotland Yard there.
With 16 EP/turn, I spread them out to get stats on everyone.
1690 BC: Pottery. Next is Writing. Delhi has been making workers and settlers (2:1 ratio), and keeps going. Cow has been working on a barracks and axemen, and makes the granary after the first axe. Gems swaps from Pyramids to granary right away.
Soon after, I found Sheep (in the South). It has a sheep and 2 grass hills, and a spices for later. Nothing great, but worth grabbing. It makes a workboat, since I'll grab the fish city next.
1640 BC: I notice Mao will open borders. Do I want to ally with him?
There are 2 Hindus, 2 Buddhists, and Mao is the only Jew, though I have several Jewish cities (and none of other religions). Darius doesn't have a religion yet, so as far as neighbors, allying with Mao is a good move. Sitting Bull hates him, but SB only has as much army as me, which means he's totally failing as an immortal AI.
I open borders with Mao. Next turn, Augustus converts to Judaism, so I convert, too.
1580 BC: Wang Kon and Rangar start preparing for war.
Hopefully they'll declare on each other. Or Darius. They're on the opposite side of the continent from me, so I'm not too worried.
Exploring Mao's lands, his border city is the Jewish holy city.
That means 2 things: First, I'm going to lose the Eastern 3 tiles of Gems. (Just flat grass, nothing terrible). Second, I could declare on Mao at some point and grab a good holy city without needing to wade through his whole empire. Could be useful.
1530 BC: Fish founded. It also gets a pigs, plus a bunch of overlap with Delhi. This will be my last city for a while. (The other spots are farther and only get one pre-calendar resource).
Delhi makes 2 more workers, then it will get a granary, then military.
Sitting Bull starts preparing for war. Mao is his worst enemy, which could drag me into it. But he's across the continent, so Mao should block his troops, keeping me fairly safe.
Also, I have stats on everyone. Here are the charts. I'm keeping up pretty well on the whole, and I'm #1 in GNP, despite not having any great culture cities. (Meaning I have even more research compared to AIs with wonders and holy cities).
I gift Mao and Caesar some health resources. (Should have done that when I swapped religions. It's 12 turns late).
1500 BC: Writing completes. I'll figure out what to do with Open Borders next turnset.
My empire:
Also, Darius starts preparing for war. Cow was already making axes, and Delhi will soon, too, so I'm fine with war. But if I'm lucky, he'll declare on Rangar or Mao.
Goals for next turnset:
Second half of the turnset. I'd already taken all the screencaps, so the images are still PNG. Next set will be JPG though.
1830 BC: Mao founds Judaism. We have 3 religions on the continent. Should be good for wars.
Spoiler :
Also, notice Mao filling in near Gems. Glad I have the backfill.
4 turns later, Judaism spreads to Gems. Mao is the only jew, so I hold off on religion for now. But the +1 culture will get me the second gems tile, which is great.
1760 BC: Fishing completes, start on Pottery.
1710 BC: Great Spy born. Time to specialize cities.
Spoiler :
Delhi will be a production monster, so I'll want to work tiles, not spies. But Cow (City #2) has corn, cow and iron, and a ton of flatland. It's also a great city, but more food and less production. It will be my main spy city. The first GSpy settles in Cow, and the second will build Scotland Yard there.
With 16 EP/turn, I spread them out to get stats on everyone.
Spoiler :
1690 BC: Pottery. Next is Writing. Delhi has been making workers and settlers (2:1 ratio), and keeps going. Cow has been working on a barracks and axemen, and makes the granary after the first axe. Gems swaps from Pyramids to granary right away.
Soon after, I found Sheep (in the South). It has a sheep and 2 grass hills, and a spices for later. Nothing great, but worth grabbing. It makes a workboat, since I'll grab the fish city next.
Spoiler :
1640 BC: I notice Mao will open borders. Do I want to ally with him?
Spoiler :
There are 2 Hindus, 2 Buddhists, and Mao is the only Jew, though I have several Jewish cities (and none of other religions). Darius doesn't have a religion yet, so as far as neighbors, allying with Mao is a good move. Sitting Bull hates him, but SB only has as much army as me, which means he's totally failing as an immortal AI.
I open borders with Mao. Next turn, Augustus converts to Judaism, so I convert, too.
1580 BC: Wang Kon and Rangar start preparing for war.
Spoiler :
Hopefully they'll declare on each other. Or Darius. They're on the opposite side of the continent from me, so I'm not too worried.
Spoiler :
Exploring Mao's lands, his border city is the Jewish holy city.
Spoiler :
That means 2 things: First, I'm going to lose the Eastern 3 tiles of Gems. (Just flat grass, nothing terrible). Second, I could declare on Mao at some point and grab a good holy city without needing to wade through his whole empire. Could be useful.
1530 BC: Fish founded. It also gets a pigs, plus a bunch of overlap with Delhi. This will be my last city for a while. (The other spots are farther and only get one pre-calendar resource).
Spoiler :
Delhi makes 2 more workers, then it will get a granary, then military.
Sitting Bull starts preparing for war. Mao is his worst enemy, which could drag me into it. But he's across the continent, so Mao should block his troops, keeping me fairly safe.
Spoiler :
Also, I have stats on everyone. Here are the charts. I'm keeping up pretty well on the whole, and I'm #1 in GNP, despite not having any great culture cities. (Meaning I have even more research compared to AIs with wonders and holy cities).
Spoiler :
I gift Mao and Caesar some health resources. (Should have done that when I swapped religions. It's 12 turns late).
1500 BC: Writing completes. I'll figure out what to do with Open Borders next turnset.
My empire:
Spoiler :
Also, Darius starts preparing for war. Cow was already making axes, and Delhi will soon, too, so I'm fine with war. But if I'm lucky, he'll declare on Rangar or Mao.
Spoiler :
Goals for next turnset:
- Library in most cities, start running scientists.
- Start stealing techs.
- Prepare for war with Darius.
OneLeggedRhino
King
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A War of Opportunity (Turns 200-288, Years 1500-620 BC)
Writing finished at the end of last turnset. Next tech: Alphabet. There are no tech trades, remember, but I have a settled Great Spy, and I want to start turning those EPs into techs.
Should I build libraries? I'll mostly run Espionage, not research, so the multiplier won't be a big deal. And Great Spies are better than Great Scientists. But being able to run scientists will keep my economy going, and it's my economy (not my military) that's keeping me from expanding. So let's build some libraries. (Everywhere except Delhi, my military city).
Also, I make roads to Mao and Darius, for trade routes. Could have started that earlier, but I needed all my workers to develop cities.
With open borders, I discover Darius's stack:
Three axes and some archers. Nothing to worry about yet, but I'll keep an eye on them. Plus I realize a nice bonus to running espionage:
Vision on all D's cities. (That's my planned dotmap for when I conquer him). Also, he converted to Judiasm. That's 4 of us total.
1300 BC: Darius declares on Mao, and razes a city! Awesome!
My military ratio with D is 0.5 (not terrible but not great), but with Mao it's 0.8, which usually means his stack is dead, and it's just city defenders. Also, Mao has the Jewish holy city right on my border (controlling it gives me -20% spy costs, plus a potential shrine), and Pyramids in his capital. Should I declare on him, grab those 2 cities, then go after D later?
Either way, I'll need a military, so Delhi and Sheep build barracks, and will join Cow in producing axes after.
1260: Darius asks me to declare on Mao. I'm not quite ready, but if they're at war, I can take a while to build a stack. And Mao's cities are so much tastier than D's. So I declare.
Also, Wang Kon makes peace with Rangar, and Sitting Bull declares on R shortly after. That side of the continent is slowing itself down without any help from me.
I build troops for 25 turns. Mao has Protective archers but no metal, so I make more swords than usual. In 1040 I roll up to the holy city:
Two archers, 3 chariots. Should be easy.
Two swordsmen die, and the city is mine. It doesn't have the holy shrine yet, but with Philosophical, I should be able to handle that.
After healing, I move on Mao's capital. Again, 2 archers, 3 chariots:
On the research front, I got Alphabet a bit ago (Currency is next, for trade routes), and my spies are finally ready. Since Mao loves chariots, I steal hunting first. Costs half as many EPs as beakers.
Back to the war, Mao's capital is also protected by 2 archers and some chariots. Easy pickings:
It comes with Pyramids, 5 people, and nothing else. Once it's out of resistance, I'll whip a granary and monument, then build a barracks and more swords. Also, I get a Great General, and settle him in Delhi.
Mao has a stack of chariots nearby, so I offer him peace. I got his two best cities, and I don't want to lose them, or wade through more protective archers right now. With only 3 cities left, he won't be teching much, and I can return with Catapults later. I swap to Representation, and add a library in Delhi, as well.
Darius has been finding my spies, so I shift EPs to Mao. Now that I have the holy city, I should have good rates against him, too. I also run a few turns of 100% EP slider.
I steal sailing from Darius:
D continues attacking Mao, just burning units. Mao, with 3 cities, isn't researching much (still no iron working, and he's living in the jungle), but he can hide in a city with the best of em.
I'd like to take Mao's last few cities, so I swap EPs to him (for revolts).
Sheep, in the South, starts on the Moai Statues. It's not an amazing Moai city, but I'd like some failgold. Five coast squares is decent, and it's well under size working just the land, so it needs the extra worthwhile tiles.
I whip Fish (West of Delhi) a couple of times, putting about 300 failgold into them.
Mao gets a ridiculous 11 archers, thanks to D's siege. No point in revolting the city, so I just steal Poly and Monotheism, then close borders so he can't shuttle those archers to his other cities (which I may still want to take).
I thought about Priesthood, but Darius is getting it soon, and I still have 600 or so EPs on him. But Mao is the only one with Mono.
Toward the end of the turnset, Mao's borders expand, and I lose the gold by Pyramids:
His city to the NE isn't land I really want, and it's defended by 4 protective archers. If he whips the city, that will cost me 5 swords to kill, so probably not worth it. I'll come back with catapults.
Currency completes, me to +5 GPT at 0% research. Since playing the Brennus failgold game, I'm totally relaxed about a 0% or worse research breakeven, which helps you expand in a specialist economy. Next tech: Code of Laws for courthouses (to run spies). I'll wait to grab the backfill cities until then (and hopefully steal Calendar too).
I think that I'll go after Darius next. Mao is great on defense, but has no offense (meaning I can commit my troops to D), and Darius has a good GP city near me. I'll have some Great Scientists popping out soon, so I'd like to make that my science city. And his capital is good for production.
Also, Sitting Bull and Rangar made peace. I'll need to stir up some more trouble on the Eastern half of the continent soon.
Techs stolen so far:
Goals for next turnset:
Writing finished at the end of last turnset. Next tech: Alphabet. There are no tech trades, remember, but I have a settled Great Spy, and I want to start turning those EPs into techs.
Should I build libraries? I'll mostly run Espionage, not research, so the multiplier won't be a big deal. And Great Spies are better than Great Scientists. But being able to run scientists will keep my economy going, and it's my economy (not my military) that's keeping me from expanding. So let's build some libraries. (Everywhere except Delhi, my military city).
Also, I make roads to Mao and Darius, for trade routes. Could have started that earlier, but I needed all my workers to develop cities.
With open borders, I discover Darius's stack:
Spoiler :
Three axes and some archers. Nothing to worry about yet, but I'll keep an eye on them. Plus I realize a nice bonus to running espionage:
Spoiler :
Vision on all D's cities. (That's my planned dotmap for when I conquer him). Also, he converted to Judiasm. That's 4 of us total.
1300 BC: Darius declares on Mao, and razes a city! Awesome!
Spoiler :
My military ratio with D is 0.5 (not terrible but not great), but with Mao it's 0.8, which usually means his stack is dead, and it's just city defenders. Also, Mao has the Jewish holy city right on my border (controlling it gives me -20% spy costs, plus a potential shrine), and Pyramids in his capital. Should I declare on him, grab those 2 cities, then go after D later?
Either way, I'll need a military, so Delhi and Sheep build barracks, and will join Cow in producing axes after.
1260: Darius asks me to declare on Mao. I'm not quite ready, but if they're at war, I can take a while to build a stack. And Mao's cities are so much tastier than D's. So I declare.
Also, Wang Kon makes peace with Rangar, and Sitting Bull declares on R shortly after. That side of the continent is slowing itself down without any help from me.
I build troops for 25 turns. Mao has Protective archers but no metal, so I make more swords than usual. In 1040 I roll up to the holy city:
Spoiler :
Two archers, 3 chariots. Should be easy.
Two swordsmen die, and the city is mine. It doesn't have the holy shrine yet, but with Philosophical, I should be able to handle that.
Spoiler :
After healing, I move on Mao's capital. Again, 2 archers, 3 chariots:
Spoiler :
On the research front, I got Alphabet a bit ago (Currency is next, for trade routes), and my spies are finally ready. Since Mao loves chariots, I steal hunting first. Costs half as many EPs as beakers.
Spoiler :
Back to the war, Mao's capital is also protected by 2 archers and some chariots. Easy pickings:
Spoiler :
It comes with Pyramids, 5 people, and nothing else. Once it's out of resistance, I'll whip a granary and monument, then build a barracks and more swords. Also, I get a Great General, and settle him in Delhi.
Mao has a stack of chariots nearby, so I offer him peace. I got his two best cities, and I don't want to lose them, or wade through more protective archers right now. With only 3 cities left, he won't be teching much, and I can return with Catapults later. I swap to Representation, and add a library in Delhi, as well.
Darius has been finding my spies, so I shift EPs to Mao. Now that I have the holy city, I should have good rates against him, too. I also run a few turns of 100% EP slider.
Spoiler :
I steal sailing from Darius:
Spoiler :
D continues attacking Mao, just burning units. Mao, with 3 cities, isn't researching much (still no iron working, and he's living in the jungle), but he can hide in a city with the best of em.
Spoiler :
I'd like to take Mao's last few cities, so I swap EPs to him (for revolts).
Sheep, in the South, starts on the Moai Statues. It's not an amazing Moai city, but I'd like some failgold. Five coast squares is decent, and it's well under size working just the land, so it needs the extra worthwhile tiles.
Spoiler :
I whip Fish (West of Delhi) a couple of times, putting about 300 failgold into them.
Mao gets a ridiculous 11 archers, thanks to D's siege. No point in revolting the city, so I just steal Poly and Monotheism, then close borders so he can't shuttle those archers to his other cities (which I may still want to take).
Spoiler :
I thought about Priesthood, but Darius is getting it soon, and I still have 600 or so EPs on him. But Mao is the only one with Mono.
Toward the end of the turnset, Mao's borders expand, and I lose the gold by Pyramids:
Spoiler :
His city to the NE isn't land I really want, and it's defended by 4 protective archers. If he whips the city, that will cost me 5 swords to kill, so probably not worth it. I'll come back with catapults.
Currency completes, me to +5 GPT at 0% research. Since playing the Brennus failgold game, I'm totally relaxed about a 0% or worse research breakeven, which helps you expand in a specialist economy. Next tech: Code of Laws for courthouses (to run spies). I'll wait to grab the backfill cities until then (and hopefully steal Calendar too).
I think that I'll go after Darius next. Mao is great on defense, but has no offense (meaning I can commit my troops to D), and Darius has a good GP city near me. I'll have some Great Scientists popping out soon, so I'd like to make that my science city. And his capital is good for production.
Also, Sitting Bull and Rangar made peace. I'll need to stir up some more trouble on the Eastern half of the continent soon.
Techs stolen so far:
- Hunting
- Polytheism
- Monotheism
Goals for next turnset:
- Prepare a stack for Darius. Get EPs on him to revolt his cities.
- Steal Priesthood, built temples, try to get a Great Prophet.
- Build courthouses, run spies, get more espionage.
-You mention Delhi is a production monster but I only count 18 hammers @ size 6, or 16 hammers with +3 food. Decent but not monstrous. Cow has more, right?
-Someone mentioned that the capital is a classic cottage bureaucracy spot, which looks about right. That actually works PERFECTLY with an espionage economy - you build SY and settle great spies there, turn the espionage slider to 100%, and build wealth or whatever else in other cities to keep the slider up. Zero hammers invested in multipliers (other than the great wall) and with a single Gspy you get +100% in the only city that produces much commerce. Now that is efficient.
-I strongly disagree with building libraries unless you need them to reach alphabet. Once you get there, you can build research and/or use spies to steal gold. One of the biggest advantages of espionage economy is that you don't waste hammers on infrastructure!
-you may as well leave barbs on if you plan to build the great wall, they won't enter your land anyways =p
-Someone mentioned that the capital is a classic cottage bureaucracy spot, which looks about right. That actually works PERFECTLY with an espionage economy - you build SY and settle great spies there, turn the espionage slider to 100%, and build wealth or whatever else in other cities to keep the slider up. Zero hammers invested in multipliers (other than the great wall) and with a single Gspy you get +100% in the only city that produces much commerce. Now that is efficient.
-I strongly disagree with building libraries unless you need them to reach alphabet. Once you get there, you can build research and/or use spies to steal gold. One of the biggest advantages of espionage economy is that you don't waste hammers on infrastructure!
-you may as well leave barbs on if you plan to build the great wall, they won't enter your land anyways =p
OneLeggedRhino
King
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OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
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Stabbing D in the Back (Turns 288-313, Years 620-370 BC)
Before advancing the turn, I steal Priesthood from D. I'm worried my spy might get caught, and I really want temples for a Great Prophet.
I also beg a little over 300 G from Darius and Caesar. Then I start my troops and spies moving toward D. That lets me run 100% research for 4 turns, getting me half of Code of Laws.
My scout finds Caesar's stack. Enough praetorians to make me worry. Pyramids switches to axemen, rather than spears.
Cow makes wealth, and I finish Code of Laws in 510 BC.
Cow becomes the Confucian holy city. Useful to get a second priest for GP purposes, but I probably won't spread the religion much. Next tech: Metal Casting, for forges (I have 2 forge happiness resources, plus would like the production bump). Wang Kon is the only one with MC, and he's on the other side of the continent.
My stack has gotten within striking distance from D's cities, but still not visible from his culture:
The peace treaty is up this turn, and I march on his city. By the time I arrive, he's reenforced.
The spy sends the city into revolt, and with his weak upgrades on flat land, I only lose one axe taking the city. (I had 3 spies here, just in case some failed).
Normally, I'd need catapults to take these cities. Earlier conquest from espionage is really nice, I hadn't planned on it.
The city has 3 people and a granary, but raze it and move it 1W, getting one more floodplains and fresh water (which will be useful with the 6 FP). This will be my Science city.
490 BC: Second Great Spy born. I'd slowed the GPP in other cities to get this, and got lucky that the 20% Great Scientist chance didn't bite me. He builds Scotland Yard in Cow.
I swap to Caste System for 8 turns to pop borders on the new Science city, and on the two I took from Mao. If Pyramids is already up to 7% my culture, maybe I can reclaim the center ring before I'm ready to take Mao's other cities.
After a dozen turns of healing, whacking a small stack from Darius, and healing again, my stack is finally next to D's capital in 370 BC.
Spy sends the city into revolt, and I take it easily. (I'd had 2 spies, but one of them got caught earlier).
With sheep, cow and iron, it's a strong production city. I keep it, bringing me to 9 cities, #1 on the continent.
Also notice that Wang Kon and Ragnar are in war mode. I haven't been able to bribe anyone to war or close borders, but if the AIs keep doing it to themselves, all the better.
The state of my empire at the end of the turnset:
On my mind now: Offer Darius peace, or keep the war going? My stack is OK but not dominant, and with Aggressive AI, he has 3-4 defenders per city. I'm spending a lot of EPs knocking down walls, which is worth it when you really want the cities, but it's expensive for marginal ones. And I'm back to losing money at 0% research.
No empire has ever benefited from a prolonged war, and my real competition is Caesar and Wang Kon. And my economy is much better than Mao's or D's at this point. I think I'll make peace, get dominant techs, then conquer or vassal Mao and D. Plus I'll get Calendar soon (from Mao), which will make it worthwhile to grab 2 of the 3 backfill cities. (#3 needs Civil Service to spread irrigation).
Goals for next turnset:
Before advancing the turn, I steal Priesthood from D. I'm worried my spy might get caught, and I really want temples for a Great Prophet.
I also beg a little over 300 G from Darius and Caesar. Then I start my troops and spies moving toward D. That lets me run 100% research for 4 turns, getting me half of Code of Laws.
My scout finds Caesar's stack. Enough praetorians to make me worry. Pyramids switches to axemen, rather than spears.
Spoiler :
Cow makes wealth, and I finish Code of Laws in 510 BC.
Spoiler :
Cow becomes the Confucian holy city. Useful to get a second priest for GP purposes, but I probably won't spread the religion much. Next tech: Metal Casting, for forges (I have 2 forge happiness resources, plus would like the production bump). Wang Kon is the only one with MC, and he's on the other side of the continent.
Spoiler :
My stack has gotten within striking distance from D's cities, but still not visible from his culture:
Spoiler :
The peace treaty is up this turn, and I march on his city. By the time I arrive, he's reenforced.
Spoiler :
The spy sends the city into revolt, and with his weak upgrades on flat land, I only lose one axe taking the city. (I had 3 spies here, just in case some failed).
Spoiler :
Normally, I'd need catapults to take these cities. Earlier conquest from espionage is really nice, I hadn't planned on it.
The city has 3 people and a granary, but raze it and move it 1W, getting one more floodplains and fresh water (which will be useful with the 6 FP). This will be my Science city.
Spoiler :
490 BC: Second Great Spy born. I'd slowed the GPP in other cities to get this, and got lucky that the 20% Great Scientist chance didn't bite me. He builds Scotland Yard in Cow.
I swap to Caste System for 8 turns to pop borders on the new Science city, and on the two I took from Mao. If Pyramids is already up to 7% my culture, maybe I can reclaim the center ring before I'm ready to take Mao's other cities.
Spoiler :
After a dozen turns of healing, whacking a small stack from Darius, and healing again, my stack is finally next to D's capital in 370 BC.
Spoiler :
Spy sends the city into revolt, and I take it easily. (I'd had 2 spies, but one of them got caught earlier).
Spoiler :
With sheep, cow and iron, it's a strong production city. I keep it, bringing me to 9 cities, #1 on the continent.
Also notice that Wang Kon and Ragnar are in war mode. I haven't been able to bribe anyone to war or close borders, but if the AIs keep doing it to themselves, all the better.
The state of my empire at the end of the turnset:
Spoiler :
On my mind now: Offer Darius peace, or keep the war going? My stack is OK but not dominant, and with Aggressive AI, he has 3-4 defenders per city. I'm spending a lot of EPs knocking down walls, which is worth it when you really want the cities, but it's expensive for marginal ones. And I'm back to losing money at 0% research.
No empire has ever benefited from a prolonged war, and my real competition is Caesar and Wang Kon. And my economy is much better than Mao's or D's at this point. I think I'll make peace, get dominant techs, then conquer or vassal Mao and D. Plus I'll get Calendar soon (from Mao), which will make it worthwhile to grab 2 of the 3 backfill cities. (#3 needs Civil Service to spread irrigation).
Goals for next turnset:
- Get new cities online, with courthouses.
- A spy in every city.
- Steal Calendar, found backfill cities.
OneLeggedRhino
King
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An Age of Peace (Or as close as I get this game) (Turns 313-357, Years 370 BC - 70 AD)
I get 160 G from Darius for peace, then extort another 150 from Mao a few turns later. Later this turnset, I beg a few hundred off Caesar and demand another 270 from D and 100 from Sitting Bull. In all, it's probably 900 gold from the AIs this turnset, mostly going into deficit EP spending.
Back to the present turn, Darius is still at war with Mao, and as soon as we make peace, he sends a small stack back up there. I love the way the AI wastes units.
300 BC: Caesar declares on Ragnar. R is across the continent from me:
So I declare too. Caesar is the only AI that likes me (he's also in the #2 spot, with me at #1), and I want to keep him at yellow-smiley while I declare on his friends Mao and Darius.
Ragnar winds up sending a few units my way, which finishes my second Great General (settles in Delhi), but I don't see any real action. It's the closest to peace I'll have this game.
I send a missionary from Pyramids down to my new cities, through Mao's territory. (I opened borders with him and Darius. I need the trade routes). And somehow, that ridiculous stack of archers is gone:
I don't know if he moved them, lost them, got rid of them for upkeep reasons or what, but his cities look pretty appealing now.
Darius continues attacking Mao. I have a few axes nearby just in case I want to grab the city.
250 BC: Darius and Mao make peace. It was good while it lasted.
With peace, Mao's troop count goes further down, with most cities just having 2 archers. I think it will be my turn for war soon.
Remember the Brennus failgold game? I still love whip overflow. Here, I whip a temple in Fish for 76 hammers overflow, put into Chitchen Itza at a x2.25 multiplier. The temple lets me run a second priest for a better chance at a Great Prophet.
I also got a Great Scientist this turnset (from Fish). He settles in Science. I'll build an academy there with the second GS I get.
More spying: Calendar from Mao for 690. I skip Monarchy, since it's not useful until I want Feudalism. (Not sure if I said, but I stole Math from D last turnset or this one).
I fail this attempt, lose the spy, but the next one gets it 2 turns later.
100 BC: Metal Casting. Forges in most cities, for a bonus +2 happiness.
The tech screen:
I'm close to parity with everyone. Mao is researching Construction, so I'll steal that soon. No one has Aesthetics, so that'll be my next tech. Get the Great Library in Science, and maybe grab the Parthenon too. Heroic Epic in Delhi, and National Epic in Cow, since it will be my main spy city.
By the way, I'm running about 50% EPs and 50% beakers, since I'm using Representation and each city can only have 1 spy. You could probably run 100% EPs with a commerce capital, but not a specialist-based economy. Maybe I'll try espionage next with Mansa Munsa.
My stack, ready to invade Shanghai. I can declare this turn, revolt the city next turn, and take it easily.
But Mao almost has Construction, and that's an important tech for me. So I hold off a few turns.
At the moment, I have plenty of EPs on Mao, and Darius is researching Currency (which I already have). Seems like a good time to spread the EPs around and get research vision on everyone.
NW Sugar, founded 60 AD. My workers have already improved the other calendar resources, so 4 can swarm this city. (They removed the jungle earlier). Cow is making 2 more settlers for the other backfill cities.
70 AD: I steal Construction for 690. It normally costs 1700 beakers, I think.
I also grab Monarchy, since otherwise the EPs will go to waste when I eliminate Mao.
If I had more spies, I could declare war this turn too, but I haven't been building enough of them. You really need to devote a city to that, since each spy costs more than an axe, and you lose a lot of them. I hadn't realized that going into this game.
Darius is in war mode, and he has a stack near my borders:
They're all city raider upgraded, which is a joke vs a human player. But my stack is way North, ready to attack Mao:
Probably takes 7 turns to get down there. I need defenses in the South, but I don't want to cancel my invasion. The solution:
That's the end of the turnset. Next, I'll send my spies back to Shanghai to revolt and conquer it. Mao isn't strong enough to vassal, and his land will work nicely in my empire. I might vassal Darius though, not sure.
Through this turnset, Delhi has mostly stayed on troops. Cow and Pyramids made spies, missionaries, plus Cow made the settler. All three made forges. The other cities worked on courthouses and temples, and Gems is on failgold (Chitchen Itza), I think. Some of them are working on forges, too.
Goals for next turnset:
I get 160 G from Darius for peace, then extort another 150 from Mao a few turns later. Later this turnset, I beg a few hundred off Caesar and demand another 270 from D and 100 from Sitting Bull. In all, it's probably 900 gold from the AIs this turnset, mostly going into deficit EP spending.
Back to the present turn, Darius is still at war with Mao, and as soon as we make peace, he sends a small stack back up there. I love the way the AI wastes units.
300 BC: Caesar declares on Ragnar. R is across the continent from me:
Spoiler :
So I declare too. Caesar is the only AI that likes me (he's also in the #2 spot, with me at #1), and I want to keep him at yellow-smiley while I declare on his friends Mao and Darius.
Ragnar winds up sending a few units my way, which finishes my second Great General (settles in Delhi), but I don't see any real action. It's the closest to peace I'll have this game.
I send a missionary from Pyramids down to my new cities, through Mao's territory. (I opened borders with him and Darius. I need the trade routes). And somehow, that ridiculous stack of archers is gone:
Spoiler :
I don't know if he moved them, lost them, got rid of them for upkeep reasons or what, but his cities look pretty appealing now.
Darius continues attacking Mao. I have a few axes nearby just in case I want to grab the city.
Spoiler :
250 BC: Darius and Mao make peace. It was good while it lasted.
With peace, Mao's troop count goes further down, with most cities just having 2 archers. I think it will be my turn for war soon.
Remember the Brennus failgold game? I still love whip overflow. Here, I whip a temple in Fish for 76 hammers overflow, put into Chitchen Itza at a x2.25 multiplier. The temple lets me run a second priest for a better chance at a Great Prophet.
Spoiler :
I also got a Great Scientist this turnset (from Fish). He settles in Science. I'll build an academy there with the second GS I get.
More spying: Calendar from Mao for 690. I skip Monarchy, since it's not useful until I want Feudalism. (Not sure if I said, but I stole Math from D last turnset or this one).
Spoiler :
I fail this attempt, lose the spy, but the next one gets it 2 turns later.
100 BC: Metal Casting. Forges in most cities, for a bonus +2 happiness.
The tech screen:
Spoiler :
I'm close to parity with everyone. Mao is researching Construction, so I'll steal that soon. No one has Aesthetics, so that'll be my next tech. Get the Great Library in Science, and maybe grab the Parthenon too. Heroic Epic in Delhi, and National Epic in Cow, since it will be my main spy city.
By the way, I'm running about 50% EPs and 50% beakers, since I'm using Representation and each city can only have 1 spy. You could probably run 100% EPs with a commerce capital, but not a specialist-based economy. Maybe I'll try espionage next with Mansa Munsa.
My stack, ready to invade Shanghai. I can declare this turn, revolt the city next turn, and take it easily.
Spoiler :
But Mao almost has Construction, and that's an important tech for me. So I hold off a few turns.
At the moment, I have plenty of EPs on Mao, and Darius is researching Currency (which I already have). Seems like a good time to spread the EPs around and get research vision on everyone.
Spoiler :
NW Sugar, founded 60 AD. My workers have already improved the other calendar resources, so 4 can swarm this city. (They removed the jungle earlier). Cow is making 2 more settlers for the other backfill cities.
Spoiler :
70 AD: I steal Construction for 690. It normally costs 1700 beakers, I think.
Spoiler :
I also grab Monarchy, since otherwise the EPs will go to waste when I eliminate Mao.
If I had more spies, I could declare war this turn too, but I haven't been building enough of them. You really need to devote a city to that, since each spy costs more than an axe, and you lose a lot of them. I hadn't realized that going into this game.
Darius is in war mode, and he has a stack near my borders:
Spoiler :
They're all city raider upgraded, which is a joke vs a human player. But my stack is way North, ready to attack Mao:
Spoiler :
Probably takes 7 turns to get down there. I need defenses in the South, but I don't want to cancel my invasion. The solution:
Spoiler :
That's the end of the turnset. Next, I'll send my spies back to Shanghai to revolt and conquer it. Mao isn't strong enough to vassal, and his land will work nicely in my empire. I might vassal Darius though, not sure.
Through this turnset, Delhi has mostly stayed on troops. Cow and Pyramids made spies, missionaries, plus Cow made the settler. All three made forges. The other cities worked on courthouses and temples, and Gems is on failgold (Chitchen Itza), I think. Some of them are working on forges, too.
Goals for next turnset:
- Eliminate Mao.
- If Darius declares, wipe out his stack (and have the right prep to do that with minimal whips).
- Finish settling my backfill.
OneLeggedRhino
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Glad you're enjoying the game.
bobbyboy29
I was saying boo-urns...
Just another fan chiming in saying that this is a really great write up. Nothing else to add, just keep 'em coming! 
vranasm
Deity
wanted to say that it is nice to see someone doing marathon playthroughs since it's not favorite setting here.
For me it is good lesson, since I shadowed with standard approach (ignored the no tech trading part ehm and didn't milk the marathon speed advantage).
As it seems swords warfare on marathon is something worth doing even on Immortal. That's imo strong observation I took from your games.
The cottage x no-cottage in this has no meaning, since overall strategy was pretty different.
Wanted to just say that I indeed continued with the effort towards cannons and was on good track to have them around 900 AD, but Rome decided otherwise so I just abandoned it, wasn't in a mood to whip down cities.
For me it is good lesson, since I shadowed with standard approach (ignored the no tech trading part ehm and didn't milk the marathon speed advantage).
As it seems swords warfare on marathon is something worth doing even on Immortal. That's imo strong observation I took from your games.
The cottage x no-cottage in this has no meaning, since overall strategy was pretty different.
Wanted to just say that I indeed continued with the effort towards cannons and was on good track to have them around 900 AD, but Rome decided otherwise so I just abandoned it, wasn't in a mood to whip down cities.
OneLeggedRhino
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Comparing the Shadow Game
A brief pause for something I've been looking forward to. I passed 10 BC last turnset, so we can see how my game (with a specialist economy) compares to vranasm's (cottage economy).
And vranasm, thanks for doing the shadow game, this review was a lot of fun.
Note: I forgot to hit the "resize" button on my game's screenshots, so they're bigger than v's. Totally unintentional, but it will probably make it easier to keep track of the games.
First, the scorecards:
We are about even in score -- 909 vs 895. No one likes vranasm (but only one guy actually dislikes him), while Caesar loves me (big yellow smiley) but everyone else actively hates me. Also, I've got a lot more military (which may have something to do with everyone hating me). I'm ahead of most AIs, and at 0.7 with Caesar, while vranasm is at 0.3 with C, and ahead of no one.
Here's a closer look at our armies:
This is probably play-style, rather than a CE vs SE difference. I usually war a lot, while vranasm seems to be taking a peaceful techer approach (I think he said he plans to sweep the continent with cannons).
vranasm: Read your post after writing this up. Yes, swords / axes warfare works well on marathon, even on Immortal, and even with Aggressive AI turned on. (Does it not work on other speeds?) I tend to pick a target when I notice that my power rating is 0.8 of theirs, since that's usually when the AI just cowers in cities. Then it's just a matter of sacrificing a few units to weaken the defenders and taking cities. The real danger is overextending: You have to know when your stack doesn't have the spare guys to sacrifice anymore, and offer peace. I try to only sac 3-exp units (or 5 if I'm running a war civic), and keep the better units for the next war. Also, you'll want lots of city raider promos, but make sure to keep a couple axes with melee promos, and a couple of swords with combat promos, for fighting in the field.
The state of our techs:
We both skipped HBR (V has no horses; I have them but don't care). I'm up Poly / Monotheism, he's up Monarchy (I skipped it because of Pyramids). I'd call it roughly even.
And our economies:
It's almost identical, which really surprises me. (I'd figured that a cottage economy would crush). Expenses are 113 vs 112. At breakeven, I have 67 beakers, 56 EPs, and 107 G (total 230), and he has 112 beakers, 4 EPs and 119 G (total 235).
Here's V's capital:
Bureaucracy will give an extra 30 commerce. (It's 39 with the multipliers at breakeven research). That's when a CE will start to pull away. I'll get a bump at Engineering, which I should probably be going for instead of Aesthetics.
Snapshots of our empires:
Our city placements are nearly identical. Vranasm placed Cow in the same place as me, and Fish (West of Delhi) in nearly the same place (1S to pick up the stone). I have a dot for his Western city (about 2/3 of the way North on the shoreline, building a lighthouse), and I would have founded it earlier except I didn't notice the fish until last turnset.
The only real difference: His North-eastern 3 cities, I instead founded as one, missing out on the cows, and leaving the bananas until later. (My Eastern cities don't count for placement comparisons since they came from wars).
Lastly, the city summaries:
Vranasm has 62 total pop over 10 cities, I have 53 pop over 9 cities. That's about 20% more people. 8 of his 9 pop advantage comes from making 3 cities in the Northeast to my one (Gems), which makes me think his play was better there.
Also, Pyramids are getting me 36 beakers per turn (plus library multipliers) from 10 specialists and 2 GP. Roughly the same as the Bureaucracy bump, and definitely not required or game-breaking. Nice to have, but probably not worth building most games.
Closing thoughts:
I'm surprised we're so close economically. I did get a lucky break with the Pyramids, but even so, I was expecting to be crushed by a commerce capital.
I'm also surprised we're so far apart in military. Though that's probably more to do with play style than anything inherent to CE vs SE.
Vranasm, I'm eager to hear your thoughts, and curious why you chose not to take a state religion. Please share, and post the 900 AD save if you can.
Here are the saves, if anyone would like a closer look.
A brief pause for something I've been looking forward to. I passed 10 BC last turnset, so we can see how my game (with a specialist economy) compares to vranasm's (cottage economy).
And vranasm, thanks for doing the shadow game, this review was a lot of fun.
Note: I forgot to hit the "resize" button on my game's screenshots, so they're bigger than v's. Totally unintentional, but it will probably make it easier to keep track of the games.
First, the scorecards:
Spoiler :
We are about even in score -- 909 vs 895. No one likes vranasm (but only one guy actually dislikes him), while Caesar loves me (big yellow smiley) but everyone else actively hates me. Also, I've got a lot more military (which may have something to do with everyone hating me). I'm ahead of most AIs, and at 0.7 with Caesar, while vranasm is at 0.3 with C, and ahead of no one.
Here's a closer look at our armies:
Spoiler :
This is probably play-style, rather than a CE vs SE difference. I usually war a lot, while vranasm seems to be taking a peaceful techer approach (I think he said he plans to sweep the continent with cannons).
vranasm: Read your post after writing this up. Yes, swords / axes warfare works well on marathon, even on Immortal, and even with Aggressive AI turned on. (Does it not work on other speeds?) I tend to pick a target when I notice that my power rating is 0.8 of theirs, since that's usually when the AI just cowers in cities. Then it's just a matter of sacrificing a few units to weaken the defenders and taking cities. The real danger is overextending: You have to know when your stack doesn't have the spare guys to sacrifice anymore, and offer peace. I try to only sac 3-exp units (or 5 if I'm running a war civic), and keep the better units for the next war. Also, you'll want lots of city raider promos, but make sure to keep a couple axes with melee promos, and a couple of swords with combat promos, for fighting in the field.
The state of our techs:
Spoiler :
We both skipped HBR (V has no horses; I have them but don't care). I'm up Poly / Monotheism, he's up Monarchy (I skipped it because of Pyramids). I'd call it roughly even.
And our economies:
Spoiler :
It's almost identical, which really surprises me. (I'd figured that a cottage economy would crush). Expenses are 113 vs 112. At breakeven, I have 67 beakers, 56 EPs, and 107 G (total 230), and he has 112 beakers, 4 EPs and 119 G (total 235).
Here's V's capital:
Spoiler :
Bureaucracy will give an extra 30 commerce. (It's 39 with the multipliers at breakeven research). That's when a CE will start to pull away. I'll get a bump at Engineering, which I should probably be going for instead of Aesthetics.
Snapshots of our empires:
Spoiler :
Our city placements are nearly identical. Vranasm placed Cow in the same place as me, and Fish (West of Delhi) in nearly the same place (1S to pick up the stone). I have a dot for his Western city (about 2/3 of the way North on the shoreline, building a lighthouse), and I would have founded it earlier except I didn't notice the fish until last turnset.
The only real difference: His North-eastern 3 cities, I instead founded as one, missing out on the cows, and leaving the bananas until later. (My Eastern cities don't count for placement comparisons since they came from wars).
Lastly, the city summaries:
Spoiler :
Vranasm has 62 total pop over 10 cities, I have 53 pop over 9 cities. That's about 20% more people. 8 of his 9 pop advantage comes from making 3 cities in the Northeast to my one (Gems), which makes me think his play was better there.
Also, Pyramids are getting me 36 beakers per turn (plus library multipliers) from 10 specialists and 2 GP. Roughly the same as the Bureaucracy bump, and definitely not required or game-breaking. Nice to have, but probably not worth building most games.
Closing thoughts:
I'm surprised we're so close economically. I did get a lucky break with the Pyramids, but even so, I was expecting to be crushed by a commerce capital.
I'm also surprised we're so far apart in military. Though that's probably more to do with play style than anything inherent to CE vs SE.
Vranasm, I'm eager to hear your thoughts, and curious why you chose not to take a state religion. Please share, and post the 900 AD save if you can.
Here are the saves, if anyone would like a closer look.
vranasm
Deity
will have to adress couple points at once 
I think that's nice and fair analysis. In retrospect I think I would do some things different with the new knowledge about marathon speed and of course respecting more no tech trades issue.
To me it actually isn't surprising that we stay very close each other with economic power. That's the big issue with cottages, they are actually f'cking slow. I don't like them generally.
Ideally on this map i would build them only in capital, since there they are good and will start shine with bureau, academy, universities and OU.
I needed to build them more then I would have like to just for the pure fact that the north west is all jungle without rivers and basically it's better to work grass cottage then unimproved grass.
As for your question about swords not being viable on normal speed... well I didn't much tests with them, but the speed is so quick that before you have needed infra for such rush done, the AI's are well established, basically the only viable classical warfare on normal speed is either HA rush (with very tight timing schedule) or some form of cats+something warfare (WE's are popular).
Don't forget that on marathon you pay for each military unit 2/3 the normal speed costs.
As for the religion. Well the religions nicely spread and is really tough to take sides here imo. I generally try to avoid picking sides early since then I would be forced into some military actions i don't want if I am teching towards decisive military tech.
That's also answer for the skeleton army and obviously did backfire at the time when Rome wiped out Mao and then bam on me.
I had already OU whipped by some 500 AD I think so was on a good track.
it seems to me that it's really tough to play good diplomacy on marathon, the AI's come very frequentely, in relative game years they come more often (the diplo checks are probably the same frequent in number of turns), so in normal game I would build up something like -3 for refused demands up to 500 AD.
here I had almost -6 for such rejects by 10 BC.
Last thing I usually delete files of games I don't plan to finish, so I would have to take my own 10 BC save from site and play it again...
I think that's nice and fair analysis. In retrospect I think I would do some things different with the new knowledge about marathon speed and of course respecting more no tech trades issue.
To me it actually isn't surprising that we stay very close each other with economic power. That's the big issue with cottages, they are actually f'cking slow. I don't like them generally.
Ideally on this map i would build them only in capital, since there they are good and will start shine with bureau, academy, universities and OU.
I needed to build them more then I would have like to just for the pure fact that the north west is all jungle without rivers and basically it's better to work grass cottage then unimproved grass.
As for your question about swords not being viable on normal speed... well I didn't much tests with them, but the speed is so quick that before you have needed infra for such rush done, the AI's are well established, basically the only viable classical warfare on normal speed is either HA rush (with very tight timing schedule) or some form of cats+something warfare (WE's are popular).
Don't forget that on marathon you pay for each military unit 2/3 the normal speed costs.
As for the religion. Well the religions nicely spread and is really tough to take sides here imo. I generally try to avoid picking sides early since then I would be forced into some military actions i don't want if I am teching towards decisive military tech.
That's also answer for the skeleton army and obviously did backfire at the time when Rome wiped out Mao and then bam on me.
I had already OU whipped by some 500 AD I think so was on a good track.
it seems to me that it's really tough to play good diplomacy on marathon, the AI's come very frequentely, in relative game years they come more often (the diplo checks are probably the same frequent in number of turns), so in normal game I would build up something like -3 for refused demands up to 500 AD.
here I had almost -6 for such rejects by 10 BC.
Last thing I usually delete files of games I don't plan to finish, so I would have to take my own 10 BC save from site and play it again...
OneLeggedRhino
King
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interesting comparisons.
Sorry for repeating myself, but:
IMO the strongest option would be a mixed economy, running espionage slider cottages & spies in the capital with Scotland Yard, and spies + merchants/wealth/failgold in the other cities. I know you said you wanted to run Nationhood instead of Bureaucracy but you're spiritual and Civil Service is a prerequisite for Nationalism so you can try both and run whichever is better.
In a NTT game i think espionage >> beakers every time, the techs are cheaper, the infra is practically free, you get your big multiplier way faster, and spy specialists output more than scientists too. Espionage points give you info and can cause revolts etc too. Downside is producing spies and sometimes pissing off AIs.
Beakers gives you a chance to get actual useful techs BEFORE the AIs, which can be a big deal. I wonder how it would work to steal everything up to a certain point, and then build science multipliers in the cap (much later, when the hammer cost is easy to bear) and switch to beakers to grab a war tech before the AI gets around to it.
Sorry for repeating myself, but:
IMO the strongest option would be a mixed economy, running espionage slider cottages & spies in the capital with Scotland Yard, and spies + merchants/wealth/failgold in the other cities. I know you said you wanted to run Nationhood instead of Bureaucracy but you're spiritual and Civil Service is a prerequisite for Nationalism so you can try both and run whichever is better.
In a NTT game i think espionage >> beakers every time, the techs are cheaper, the infra is practically free, you get your big multiplier way faster, and spy specialists output more than scientists too. Espionage points give you info and can cause revolts etc too. Downside is producing spies and sometimes pissing off AIs.
Beakers gives you a chance to get actual useful techs BEFORE the AIs, which can be a big deal. I wonder how it would work to steal everything up to a certain point, and then build science multipliers in the cap (much later, when the hammer cost is easy to bear) and switch to beakers to grab a war tech before the AI gets around to it.
OneLeggedRhino
King
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@Keilah Sounds interesting, maybe you can play a shadow game and show us?
OneLeggedRhino
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By the way, if anyone is interested in Bureaucracy vs Nationalism for espionage, here's the calculation I did before the game. (I write when I think, but the writing is sloppier than I normally do here):
bur multiplies base economy. so that 50% is multiplied by scotland yard, jail, etc, resulting in about a 150% bump to the capital.
nationalism's 25% is added to all the other bonuses. so it's a flat 25%, applied to all your cities.
let's assume your commerce city is 2x as good as your other cities (it won't be, but it can be close), so the 150% bump does as much as a 300% bump to any random city. that means that, if you have 12 total average-powered EP cities, nationalism is better. (this is actually 10 other EP cities, since your commerce city counts as 2 cities for this calculation).
add in the high upkeep for bur vs the zero upkeep of nationalism, and unless you have a particularly small empire, nationalism is better
bur multiplies base economy. so that 50% is multiplied by scotland yard, jail, etc, resulting in about a 150% bump to the capital.
nationalism's 25% is added to all the other bonuses. so it's a flat 25%, applied to all your cities.
let's assume your commerce city is 2x as good as your other cities (it won't be, but it can be close), so the 150% bump does as much as a 300% bump to any random city. that means that, if you have 12 total average-powered EP cities, nationalism is better. (this is actually 10 other EP cities, since your commerce city counts as 2 cities for this calculation).
add in the high upkeep for bur vs the zero upkeep of nationalism, and unless you have a particularly small empire, nationalism is better
vranasm
Deity
btw was thinking about more differences marathon x normal and I think it really is other game.
for example if we both play on standard map and have to travel the same distance, you move 3x times quicker, thus swords are much better then on normal. Btw that's why move-2 attack units are so popular lately on normal speed.
Other thing... you used to switching civics each 5 turns, well if you transition it into normal where it's the same 5 turns, the real difference is that you switch civics every "2-turns of normal speed", actually less, but for the sake of rounding let's say it's 2.
Sooo I think you could really be surprised when you try normal ;-) and think you would have to adjust.
Btw you run into similar issues if you're used to normal and touch quick speed... completely different world.
Interesting enough normal and epic both have similar difficulty and balance imo. Quick and marathon being too different.
for example if we both play on standard map and have to travel the same distance, you move 3x times quicker, thus swords are much better then on normal. Btw that's why move-2 attack units are so popular lately on normal speed.
Other thing... you used to switching civics each 5 turns, well if you transition it into normal where it's the same 5 turns, the real difference is that you switch civics every "2-turns of normal speed", actually less, but for the sake of rounding let's say it's 2.
Sooo I think you could really be surprised when you try normal ;-) and think you would have to adjust.
Btw you run into similar issues if you're used to normal and touch quick speed... completely different world.
Interesting enough normal and epic both have similar difficulty and balance imo. Quick and marathon being too different.
