No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[SilentDemon]

I find this quote to be mostly rhetoric. What does 'civilization oriented' mean? How are you defining what a civilization is? And how were the Inca at all more 'civilization oriented' than the Hebrew people?

I also think you misjudge the Inca Empire in terms of stability and accomplishment. In terms of political unity, in their hundred or so years of exsistence as an empire, the Inca were certinaly NOT unified: when the spanish arrived they were amid a huge civil war.

In terms of Hebrew accomplishments, they have one of the oldest written languages and one of the oldest written histories. In terms of modern accomplishments, modern day Israel has the Mossad and one of the best air forces in the world. Its also beleived, though not verified for obvious reasons, that Israel has nuclear submarines. If you don't think they were influential before, they certainly are now. If they weren't, they wouldn't be able to exist surrounded by hostile nations. Before anyone argues that it was the US and France that gave them the weapons, I'd like to point it out that that fact doesn't really matter anymore in terms of accomplishments... they have the weapons now, its not like the US could take them back if the wanted to. Carthage and Rome both relied on other peoples for the bulk of their military.

I think my original quote stands alone, regardless of this response which somewhat undermines itself.

 

[Tokugawa Pringl]

No. Great Britain is close enough for Israel, I mean- they did have Palestine.

 

[Xineoph]

1. Yeah...for 30 years. Modern Israel has been around longer for that.
2. There is no Great Britain in Civ, just England.

 

[naterator]

2. There is no Great Britain in Civ, just England.

more proof of the pro-england, anti-britain propaganda distributed by firaxis...

 

[Simsy]

I just cannot let that go.

And are you really such a baby that you have to say that the company has something against jews because they did not include the hebrews?

perhaps not the game, did you check responses here ?

Hebrews are not politicly correct but arab is.
the hebrews are within the babylonians.
you got your segment by having england in the game

or the all time "you have your represention by having the american on the game you are part of it anyway".

what kind of response is this ? you want to tell me such response is clean from this kind of things?

 

[Simsy]

I'm sorry, did you miss this???

Israeli bulldozers do more than bulldoze houses, they run right over people too (unarmed, to be sure). They even get away with killing Americans, which the American government usually isn't too keen on, unless it's perfect Israel, the perfect setup for a stale-mate, as Kissinger put it.

Eh, but whatever.

the fact that in europe and the US you see something on Television doesn't say it's the full picture.

if terrorists would explode every monday and thursday near your house and in your cities - i am sure you have done the same, so don't get so innocent here.

 

[zeeter]

Folks, there is no rule that every civilization must be represented in this game. It's not the olympics where you have a right to be there. Stop talking about the Firaxians in the same veign as Nazis. Mose people who don't care if Israel is in the game are not anti-Semites. We just don't care. Just like we don't care if Taiwan is in the game, or Brazil, or South Africa, or Belgium, or Austria, or Cambodia, or Australia, or Hondures, or Lybia, or Hungary and any of the other Balkan states. There's a hundred or so countries that could make some legitimate claim to Civilization. They're not all calling it Anti-South African or anything.

 

[Armed_Maniac]

Urgh! Leave it be!

You want jews? Too many of them to ignore? THEY ALREADY ARE IN THE GAME. Jews acroos the world don't make a nation, they make a religion, and i'm pretty sure you already got it.

Want Isreal? Make a mod. There's plenty of other civs that had more impact that I'd rather see in an official product. It's NOT going to happen, get over it.

 

[Nachos]

I think is more dangerous to close a thread about Israel because ONE person used a exagerated word. Very nice to hear how great and influent was Israel in the past, but if we have to put real words on what it is doing right now,it would hurt many people, isnt' it? And I am not at all a hater, but an objective european observator.

The world is sick, and we could become even more sick if we had to censure always ourselves.

haha, "an objective european observator". that's a good one i've lived in europe all my life and iv'e hardly ever met one. i do meet "objective" pro-palestinian observators all the time though. and in america the "objective" observators tend to be pro-israel.

personally I think it would be inappropriate to have Israel in the expansion pack, mostly politically and in other ways.

I'm fine with an Israel mod because then ppl can choose to have it or not.

please give me one good political reason why israel shouldn't be included

 

[Xineoph]

You can easily think of one good political reasons for any of the civs in the game to not be included, just by taking events from the last 50 years.

Save Mongolia probably.

 

[Shibsta]

I'm glad Israel isn't in the game but if they were it would be fun wiping them off the face of the earth (in the game)

 

[dlordmagic]

I personally believe all civs throughout history should be included. Unfortunately, they dont have room for every Civ in this game. thats what the mods are for. When the expansion comes out the modders should be able to add alot more civs to the game when the hardcode limit of 18 civs have been removed. Heck Im workin on an Alien race mod intent on wipin out the earth civs of the game.

 

[Sohan]

I wouldn't mind having Israel in the game. However, I also wouldn't mind seeing about 20 other civs added to the game, and the Israelites (with maybe David as a king and some noteworthy modern ruler as a second option) are just one.

Problem with including a bunch of new civs is finding unique traits and unique units and unique colors and unique buildings and flags and city names, etc. Firaxis wants each civ to be unique. They added two new traits in order to include the ten leaders they have just included, with five leaders per each new trait combined with an existing trait most likely.

Anyways, if they did add another civ to the Middle East (Southwestern Asia) region, I would prefer Babylonians over the Israelites. Hammurabi anyone?

 

[Perfect_Blue]

the fact that in europe and the US you see something on Television doesn't say it's the full picture.

I don't have tv, and very rarely see one, and when you do see American tv about what's happening in the Middle East, it's always pro-Israel, so don't give me that crap.

 

[Ceritoglu]

I haven't read any of the previous posts (I have a bad hangover and I'm not in the mood to trawl through this mammoth thread) but I'm just going to say I think Israel is more deserving than some of the other civilisations included. Ancient Israel had a somewhat more pronounced impact on world history than a few of the other civs included in the expansion pack.

 

[SilentDemon]

There are quite a few civilizations that should probably be included before Israel, and most of the ones already in the game have a more deserving place. Israel is not what I would have defined as a "Great civilization."

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Problem with including a bunch of new civs is finding unique traits and unique units and unique colors and unique buildings and flags and city names, etc. Firaxis wants each civ to be unique. They added two new traits in order to include the ten leaders they have just included, with five leaders per each new trait combined with an existing trait most likely.

Well a good solution to that problem would be to have "Skin" civs. That are Only Civ name, City Name, Banner (banner used instead of Leader head graphics)..and maybe a region of the world

Lay the Israelite or Hebrew Skin on top of the Aztec,
Aggressive Spiritual Leader (Named "Hebrew Leader" unless changed)
with
Hebrew Swordsmen UU (str 5, +10% City Attack, no resources required, +25% in Jungle)
and
Hebrew Altar UBuilding

About 5 or however many they have time for cities in the city list, then it grabs from other random 'Mideast Civ' lists, then any random list. When anyone talks to the leader they get the Hebrew banner.

That way probably the few hundred civs (Candians, Confederates, Croatians, etc.) that would be nice to have could be added to the game without any particular investment on the designers part (probably a week's worth of work) and without any gameplay changes.

That way not only could you play whatever civ you wanted, you could play them As you wanted (the Skins could be put on top of ANY civ).

As an even better alternative, expand the Custom screen
After you pick a civ Now you can change the name of the Civ and the leader, how about you can also pick
1. The Banner (from a list)
2. The Leader Graphic (from a list Including 'just my Banner')
3. The name of your UU
4. The name of your UBuilding
5. A City List (from a List of city lists)

That means the Only thing the designers would have to do is
1. Get a list of Banners
2. Get a List of City Lists for each Civ that people might Want a City list For...Like Singapore..a list one city long.


Allow you to do the same thing for the AI players and then you could play against a bunch of Civs of unknown traits (until you met them) but with the labels you wanted.

 

[Ribannah]

Some questions to answer if you want to push a civ:

- what did they invent?
- what did they conquer?
- what did they trade?

 

[Simsy]

of course i will give you that **** perfect blue - cause you don't even close to know what are you talking about i am sorry to tell you.

 

[Greek Stud]

- what did they invent?

(1) They introduced monotheism to Western Civilization and are the basis to Christianity and Islam. The old testament is the most accurate historical document of the ancient world where we discover the Hittites mentioned as the "Hethites" a descendent of Jewish heritage. The old testament also maps out the ancient world which has led to the discovery of countless other accounts and civilizations.
(2) They built the Pyramids of Egypt and the Temple of Solomon.
(3) They introduced consepts of Laws bestowed on the habits of diet and lifestyle. Different than just social taboos, Jewish law was introduced to the Egyptians and Greeks for health and hygiene. The Jews considered it a crime to kill a newborn infant which in those times was obsurd not to kill weak children.

- what did they conquer?

Joshua, successor to Moses, led successive campaigns against the Canaanite kings. King Jabin (Javin) was defeated in northern Galilee by the 12th century BC. Deborah was the first Jewish woman judge, had Joshua act against Barak which the Israelites were victorious over.

After defeating the land of Canaan, the Hebrews receive a new name: "Israelites." The first leaders of the Israelites are the Prophets, the most uniform Israelite figure that united the various tribes.

In Samuel's day, the most formidable enemies were the Philistines (almost certainly the "peoples of the sea" according to Egyptian documents). The Sea Peoples may have well been from the Minoan Civilization of Crete. The Philistines held the coastal mountainous strip from what is today Gaza Strip to Jaffa. In one battle, the Philistines captured the Ark of the Covenant from the Israelites. Joshua use to carry the Ark in battle. It allegedly brought the Philistines nothing but harm. Their chief god, Dagon, portrayed as an image fell flat before the Ark when it was brought into town. The Israelite victory at Mizpeh gave Samuel the Ark.

The Golden Age was represented at the time of David and Solomon. David chosen by Samuel, was the first embodiment of the Messianic concept in Judiasm: one of his descendats would return to save the Jews in their hour of need.

Jerusalem and its eastern suburb Zion were inhabited by the Jebusites of the Canaanites before David's conquest. It features a natural defensible mountain stronghold but was also the neutral area between the northern and southern 12 Tribes of Israel. A sort of "federal district" shared between the tribes.

Solomon forged alliances with King Hiram of Phoenicia. He had thousands of wives and great dealings with his neighbors whom like the Queen of Sheba paid their respects to him in his land.

The fall of Israel began when King Omri gave his son Ahab for marriage to Jezebel, the daughter of the king of Tyre. Tiglath-Pileser III, the Assyrian king, captured both Babylon and in 10 years Israel at Samaria. Under King Josiah, the kingdom of Judah was spared from Assyria for not helping Israel. Josiah revived Judiasm more than David and Solomon combined. He renovated the Great Temple found the manuscripts to the "five books of Moses" or "the book of the Law" the first written version of the book of Deuteronomy.

BC 2000 Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob settled in the land of Canaan in Egypt. Shechem, Succoth, Luz (Bethel), Ai, Ephrath, Mamre, Hebron, Gerar and Beersheba encompased the beginning Jewish settlements.
BC 1800-1500 Jewish settlements in the land of Goshen (or Lower Egypt), Jews build the Egyptian cities Raamses and Pithom through forced labor.
BC 513 Independent Jewish Kingdom of Mahoza led by Mar Zutra set up in Persia where he and his father were crucified by the Persians.

- what did they trade?

The Ancient Israelites traded gold, silver, ivory, apes and peacocks with Arabia, eastern Africa and India trade routes. They inherited terrace farming techniques from the Lycians and traded goods with far stretching regions including the Trojans, Phrygians, Hittites, Mitanni, Assyrians, Medians, Persians, Babylonians, Abyssinians, Phoenicians, Greeks, and Egyptians.
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I have much more information, but this should be a great start.